Neon said:Jews will always be allies. A few rotten-mouthed Jews wouldn't change my mind. Just the same way a few fundamental Christians in America wouldn't make me perceive Christianity to be in the same grounds of Islam.
They're more allies than they are our enemies, if anything. But I meant in a future tense - If we have a nation, I can see us being allies. They're Semitic-speaking and they even sound similar to us. Armenians are next of kin. And speaking of Armenians, they also haven't aided us too. But of course, Israelis will always be the despised ones.
One of the early Kurdish interlocutors was activist Ismet Sherif Vanly. In his memoirs, Vanly revealed that in 1964, when the Kurdish revolution was in dire straits, he suggested to Kurdish leader Mulla Mustafa Barzani that he contact Jerusalem for help. Upon Barzani's agreement, Vanly went to Israel (with the help of the head of the Iranian intelligence) where he met Prime Minister Levi Eshkol, as well as Shimon Peres, head of the Labor party. Following that visit, the Israeli government sent a permanent representative to Iraqi Kurdistan. The Israelis also attempted to arrange meetings for Vanly with U.S. officials, but the latter refused. According to Vanly, Ibrahim Ahmad, who later would split from Barzani's party, had at an earlier date made a secret visit to Israel. The revelation about Ahmad is important because, in later years, Ahmad's faction leaked information about the secret relationship between the Barzanis and Israel in order to embarrass the Barzanis.
These ties, kept secret by both sides, reached their peak in the early years of the Baath in 1968-75. Barzani visited Israel secretly twice, in 1968 and 1973, meeting with high Israeli officials including the prime minister. Mustafa's sons Masoud and Idris also visited Israel. For their part, various Israeli officials frequented the Kurdish region. Some conspiracy theories put the number of Israelis present at the time in Kurdistan in the thousands. In fact, they did not exceed three or four.
These ties brought benefits to both partners. Jerusalem obtained intelligence as well as support for a few thousand Jews fleeing Baath Iraq. The Kurds received security and humanitarian aid as well as links to the outside world, especially the United States. The first official acknowledgment that Jerusalem had provided aid to the Kurds dates to September 29, 1980, when Prime Minister Menachem Begin disclosed that Israel had supported the Kurds "during their uprising against the Iraqis in 1965?1975" and that the United States was aware of the fact. Begin added that Israel had sent instructors and arms but not military units.
Israeli aid was initially limited to human-itarian assistance such as the construction of a field hospital in 1966. It expanded gradually, eventually to include the supply of small arms and ammunition. Later, it encompassed more sophisticated equipment such as antitank and antiaircraft weapons. It also included training Kurds in Israel and Kurdistan.
One reliable source claimed that all training of Kurds was provided by Israel. Rafael Eytan, who visited Kurdistan in 1969 before he became Israel's chief of staff, stated that almost all of the Israeli trainers were paratroopers. Israelis also served as advisers. In fact, Eytan's visit served the same purpose. But it should be stressed that Israelis were never involved directly in combat and had no command role whatsoever. They also helped in activities such as propaganda campaigns in Europe, courses for Kurdish medics, and with the creation of schoolbooks in Kurdish. These ties were abruptly stopped in March 1975 following the Algiers agreement between Iraq and Iran that put an end to the Kurdish rebellion. But discrete relations were resumed a few years later and have continued for most of the time ever since.
Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical. Some Americans believe that this was a war for oil, but there is hardly any direct evidence to support this claim. Instead, the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure. According to Philip Zelikow, a former member of the president's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, and now a counsellor to Condoleezza Rice, the "real threat" from Iraq was not a threat to the United States.
The "unstated threat" was the "threat against Israel", Zelikow told an audience at the University of Virginia in September 2002.
Joe25 said:Second argument is Israel backing the US(when the UN didn't) to invade Iraq in 03, beginning the Assyrian exodus from Iraq.
Again a case of them not even considering us or any other minorities, but their actions have disatrous effects on Assyrians.
Indirect enemies, indeed.
mrzurnaci said:Here's the thing though joe, it was at that point in time where we should've grouped up and backed up one another but we didn't. We can blame Israel all day but it won't change the fact that Assyrians in Iraq that lived outside Assyria chose to leave instead of moving to Assyria. These Assyrians clearly had money too which they could've used to help build up our areas but decided not to.
I could say this is a result of living near Muslims who have the same selfish attitude but I can't change what happened. The only thing we can do is move on and learn from our mistakes. We're still alive, we're down but we're not out.
Joe25 said:This thread is zero'ing in on the negative Israeli part in our recent history though. Accepting our own faults is fine but it doesn't deflect from what others did. Furthermore you may be right but I never felt it was proper for us to critique our people living in the homelands surrounded by danger, it is easy for us to say things when we have always lived comfortably in the peaceful west.
mrzurnaci said:true but we shouldn't not focus our energy on Israel. Again, we have to move on but remember. Forgive but never forget.
They live near danger, one must fortify. Secondly, pessimism permeates their minds. I told my uncle that in order to have a homeland, we need to fight for it. He replies saying "how can we fight almost 2 billion Muslims?" which I thought was a very dumb and ignorant thing for him to say. I didn't say that was dumb because I didn't want to disrespect him.
going back to the topic. I said before that Israel only cares that it has the possibility to survive. Israeli government relies entirely on the USA's funding and the USA uses Israel as its forward base to increase its influence in the Middle East against Russia.
Yea people say "jews own the world" but it's not that simple and it's not that complex. Israel was allowed creation because it gave the West a forward base to the Middle East in order to counter the increasing influence of the Soviet Union.
This is why Arabs and Palestinians view Israel and Jews as "colonists" even though there already were Jews (not as much compared to now) living in the land.
Israel's personal goal is to survive living around vast populations of hostile Muslims. The way I see it, Countries are like giant bodies of organisms and the people are its cells. Like organisms, every country's top priority is to survive if it can help it.
Israel's government won't care to help us unless we can benefit them in some way. Israeli people will very likely have sympathy for us but only Israel's government can act and, again, they won't act unless we can benefit them in some way.
If our people had a stronger presence in the homeland, maybe Israel's government would've considered us but we never exceeded more than 2M population size since the time of the Mongols...
Israel had a choice between two peoples who needed outside help and were not against Israel or its people: 1.5 Million Assyrians that are somewhat scattered throughout Iraq or 6-7 Million Kurds that mostly have 4-5 million in a concentrated area. The answer is obvious who to pick.
Israel chose Kurds for 3 reasons: to keep Saddam Hussein busy, to keep Iran busy, and to keep Turkey busy.
Turkey, with the rise of Islamism, has seen a sharp increase of anti-Israel and anti-Jewish sentiment in the population. Iran is openly hostile to Israel itself, and Saddam Hussein was openly hostile to Israel as well.
By making Kurds stronger, especially the ones in Iraq, Israel could weaken all 3 nations so they wouldn't have the power projection to attack OR help the Palestinians in attacking Israel.
The Kurds of the KRG can also resupply and arm the PKK to deal with Turkey. Thus Kurds become a buffer state so as to be possible cannon fodder against Iran and Turkey.
Israel didn't arm us because 1. our population, though decently large sized, wasn't concentrated enough into one area, 2. we don't have a beef with Iran and we don't have an active force fighting against Turkey, 3. we were still recovering from the Assyrian genocide and Simele, and 4. Our christian nature concerning peace and forgiveness doesn't exactly make us threatening.
The idea of peace and forgiveness may work for civilized people like Europeans and Japanese folk but not against barbarian savages like Muslims. Muslims see peace and forgiveness as a weakness instead of realizing its purpose because they're too stupid.
Realistically, if Israel did help us and we chose to fight, we probably would not fight beyond the areas we held which meant we wouldn't be a valuable buffer state holding Iran and Turkey off.
Why are you replying to my posts now?Joe25 said:You have an agenda here to glorify the jews by questioning other legit allies like Armenians and others, asking for evidence and such, yet you have offered no evidence of Israel being our "allies" in any way. They are not, they are indirect enemies if we look at all the facts of the matter.
You're describing orthodox Jews who, in fact, do perceive us as such. I'm obviously speaking about the majority of the Jews, who tend to be fairly open-minded and rational about history and our relationship to them. You do realize that many Jews are secular and would refrain from using words such as "goyim" and see us as "inferior"?LOL great, they're semitic speaking. They sound similar to us. That's adorable. Doesn't make them allies for the same reason islamic semites aren't. We are not on the jewish radar at all because we're considered inferior goyim who worship(according to them) a fake messiah, and they consider our religion a vile anti-jewish one which is of course idiotic.
Neon said:Why are you replying to my posts now?
My agenda is as obvious as the sky. I will defend Jews, even if they're not that perfect. No, there is no evidence of them being allies, but there's also no evidence of them being enemies. "Indirect enemies" is a really ingenuous and baseless reason. That won't make them bona fide enemies either way.
You're describing orthodox Jews who, in fact, do perceive us as such. I'm obviously speaking about the majority of the Jews, who tend to be fairly open-minded and rational about history and our relationship to them. You do realize that many Jews are secular and would refrain from using words such as "goyim" and see us as "inferior"?
Want an actual "adorable" reason? Christians believe in the Old Testament (you know, the Jewish book). Christians and Jews obviously have much closer ties. I wouldn't bring up Islamic Semites as they reject the bible, just the same way Christians reject their book. So, not a fair comparison.
I am not denying their INDIRECT "misdeeds" against us. So they're supporting Kurds, perhaps for their own good (economy). Why is that such a bad thing? And what does that have to do with us? It is not in their intention to crap on us. Every country will have allies that us, as an ethnic group (or any other nationalities), will not be fond of. Let's not forget that Israel is a country and it will always "play the game" to gain advantages and benefits. America is an ally with Saudi Arabia, should we hate America for this? Perhaps not. They know how to have an alliance with a country to gain an advantage in their economic system. Last time I checked, Kurds, as much as we have hostility towards them, are still an ethnic group, not a terrorist organization. So it's not a crime if one country sees them as allies.Joe25 said:Why I'm replying? I see unfounded glorification of Israel who are our enemies and I call it out, what's so hard to understand. This isn't your safe space remember, you're not gonna decide who posts what here. I just posted a good amount of evidence above yet you still claim there's no evidence of Israel's misdeeds against Assyrians. I posted sources that confirm that Israel supported the war that tore us apart and they are responsible for the Kurds' growth in power and continued funding which is ethnically cleansing us. You ignored everything and still haven't provided any proof of the contrary. You said they speak semitic and you personally like them, therefor Assyrians should consider them allies. How compelling of an argument.
True. But that wasn't my point. What I mean is that Christians (at least many of them) still adhere to the teachings of the Old Testament (namely Psalms and Proverbs), whereas Muslims would even dare own a copy of the Old Testament.Also no, jews and muslims are more similar to eachother. Muhammad had a lot of interactions with jews, persian pagans and christians. He copied most of his religion from Judaism and Zoroastrianism to encourage them to convert after going to war with them. For the christians he merely accepted the existence of Jesus Christ but only considered him a normal prophet. Jews and muslims are far more similar as they adhere to Weak/Direct Monotheism(Christianity adheres to Weak/Indirect Monotheism) with their belief in one God, their circumcision of newborns, similar dietary restrictions, praying towards a direction, the symbol of the big stone etc et. Another subject where you're out of bounds.