• Our popular and beloved forums are finally back, after being down since April 2018 due to hosting and server issues. We have now switched to a better platform, while maintenaing all data as it was before (contents and user names) . Thank you for your patience and loyalty. If you have any questions, need to report an error, or are having trouble logging in, please email us at: assyrianvoice@rogers.com

The Kurds: More divided than ever ?

Shahin

Member
Here are two article that highlights the divisions among the Kurds and their political leaders/organisations:

1) The first one is about Kurds and their stances on PKK and ISIS.

Kurds Joining Islamic State? ISIS Finds Unlikely Supporters Among Turkey's Disgruntled Kurds

In recent years, hundreds of Kurds from Turkey, Iraq and Syria have joined the Islamic States' ranks, according to experts and government officials. In one highly publicized incident, a high-ranking Kurdish leader of ISIS from the city of Erbil in Iraq, Ziad Salim Mohammad Ali al-Kurdi, was killed earlier this year in a U.S.-led coalition airstrike.
...
Kurd Vs. Kurd

The poorest areas in Turkey's southeast have been the most fertile recruiting grounds for ISIS, experts said. Unemployment in Turkey's Kurdish region is about six times higher than elsewhere across the country, the Christian Science Monitor has reported. The region is also considerably less developed than elsewhere in Turkey, with poor housing and governmental infrastructure.

But the lure of ISIS goes beyond class divisions. As the war in Syria has re-energized Kurdish political movements operating in southeast Turkey, a wide division has also resurfaced among left-wing and conservative Kurds. The Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), a guerilla movement which was founded to carve out a secular autonomous state, has been the loudest voice in Kurdish politics for decades and their policies have prompted some Kurdish youth to look toward religious extremist groups for alternatives.

"Kurdish society is a religious society, and many have a problem with the PKK's secular language, so many are changing their [views] about them," Mehmet Kurt, an assistant professor of sociology at Bingol University and Newton Advanced Fellow in School of Law at Queen Mary University of London, who has written a book on Kurdish Islamist groups, said.
...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) The second article is about PKK's Kurds position toward KRG and Turkey.

Striking Pipeline, Kurdish Militants Deal Blow to Fellow Kurds

The PKK?s attacks on energy infrastructure in Turkey aren?t just directed at their longtime enemy in Ankara ? they're also aimed at Iraqi Kurds they see as sellouts.
...
Here?s where things get complicated: The oil pipeline that the PKK attacked carries crude from Iraqi Kurdistan to the Turkish coast for export. That pipeline is the financial lifeline for Iraqi Kurds: It is the only way to sell serious volumes of crude oil that the Kurdish regional government needs to keep functioning, including paying the salaries of Peshmerga fighters who have battled the Islamic State in Iraq since last summer. In other words, while the attack blew up a pipeline inside Turkey, it was directed as much toward fellow Kurds as it was against Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
...
?The PKK has a reason to stick it to both Barzani and Erdogan,? said Matthew Reed, a Mideast expert and vice president at energy consultancy Foreign Reports. They see him as a sellout.??Barzani has traded dependence on Baghdad for dependence on Turkey.
...
?The question isn?t whether or not the pipeline can be repaired in short order; it?s how many times a week it is going to have to be repaired,? Reed said.
The immediate concern is for Iraqi Kurdistan?s finances. The pipeline can ship a maximum of 400,000 barrels of crude per day ? though actual capacity is often far less? from oil fields in northern Iraq to the Turkish coast, where the oil can be loaded onto tankers. That translates to as much as $20 million a day in potential revenue at current oil prices.
Longer-term continued threats to the operation of the Kurdish-Turkish pipeline could also torpedo an uneasy peace between Erbil and Baghdad. Over the past year, the two sides reached an agreement: The Kurds could export their own oil and still share some of the proceeds with the Iraqi government. Lately, the Kurds have also been letting Iraq pump oil through the pipeline to tankers in Turkey. Those shipments are worth hundreds of millions of dollars a month to the cash-strapped Iraqi government. But if the pipeline?s operations are diminished by steady PKK attacks, export volumes will almost certainly decline. And that could make relations between Erbil and Baghdad a whole lot thornier than they already are.

?If the volumes are diminished, will Baghdad get its tankers every month or are the Kurds going to prioritize their own needs? Because then you could see that fight getting much nastier,? Reed said.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So we are seeing that Kurds are little by little fighting each others, With NATO (and US) full support to Erdogan, PKK could really be heavily weakened.
Barzani even said that: PKK responsible for ending reconciliation process
Moreover, if KRG become destabilized, the situation of our people will be worsened more. Let us note also that South East turkey is becoming more and more destabilized, what will also happen for our people there in Mardin, Hakkari and Sirnak province ? At the height of the clash between PKK and Turkey, our people emigrated to Europe, leaving many villages empty or now in majority populated by Kurds, but we still have some people and monasteries, churches, manuscripts etc.
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Kurds will always be divided, not JUST because of these issues but other issues such as the fact that Kurdish is multiple different LANGUAGES and dialects mostly divided into Northern Kurdish (Kurmanji), Central Kurdish (Sorani), and Southern Kurdish...

Thing is though, Assyrians have to get armed in case Kurdish criminals take advantage of the inter-ethnic civil war to rob/attack us.

I should also mention that we stay 100% neutral, no supporting of KRG or PKK because these are issues we have no business getting involved in but I shouldn't have to say that anyways.
 

Etain

Member
Considering they're facing a dual assault from ISIS and Turkey, you would think they would be more unified than ever.
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Etain said:
Considering they're facing a dual assault from ISIS and Turkey, you would think they would be more unified than ever.
Kurds only tribally unite when they're threatened...

Similar to Jews and Assyrians; when we're ALL feeling equally threatened, especially by death, Assyrians and Jews unite for the sake of survival...

This culminated in the creation of Israel because Jews felt threatened in nearly every nation they went and lived in. In order to survive, they felt like they needed a country that'll 100% accept Jews and accept their needs; to do that, they had to make one themselves...

They still feel threatened as well considering that all Israelis must put in military service to protect the state.

Kurds never had such an issue because they were a Muslim people who were privileged compared to Assyrians, Armenians, and Jews living near them.

By being Muslims, Kurds have full rights and certain entitlements reserved for Muslims while Assyrians and Armenians were second class citizens as dictated by any Islamically-run State.

From this, Kurds never felt threatened and they still don't feel threatened because of their swelled numbers resulting from Islamic culture and its oppression on non-Muslims.
 

Shahin

Member
mrzurnaci said:
Kurds will always be divided, not JUST because of these issues but other issues such as the fact that Kurdish is multiple different LANGUAGES and dialects mostly divided into Northern Kurdish (Kurmanji), Central Kurdish (Sorani), and Southern Kurdish...

Thing is though, Assyrians have to get armed in case Kurdish criminals take advantage of the inter-ethnic civil war to rob/attack us.

I should also mention that we stay 100% neutral, no supporting of KRG or PKK because these are issues we have no business getting involved in but I shouldn't have to say that anyways.
Yep, it's true that linguistically, they have more than 5 languages, I've read somewhere 7, some are "dialects" others are languages, not intelligible."Kurd" has always been a catch up for all these Iranians languages... Even for religion they are divided: Yezidis, sunnis and shi'a/Alawis...

The thing is, that we are not neutral, The Dowronoye are with the Kurds, in Syria they are with the YPG/PKK (MFS and Sutoro), in Iraq there militias (NPF) are with the Peshmerga (same with Dwekh Nawsha of Assyrian patriotic Party).
While ADO is with the opposition (FSA, rebels) in Syria, other Assyrians are with Assad's regime (Sootoro and GPU), in Iraq Zow'aa try to not be under KRG rules...
We can't be neutral.

The whole middle-east is waging war on itself, Kurds against Kurds, Arabs against Arabs, ISIS against all, Turkey laughing at them,  just sending F16 at them.

 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Shahin said:
Yep, it's true that linguistically, they have more than 5 languages, I've read somewhere 7, some are "dialects" others are languages, not intelligible."Kurd" has always been a catch up for all these Iranians languages... Even for religion they are divided: Yezidis, sunnis and shi'a/Alawis...

The thing is, that we are not neutral, The Dowronoye are with the Kurds, in Syria they are with the YPG/PKK (MFS and Sutoro), in Iraq there militias (NPF) are with the Peshmerga (same with Dwekh Nawsha of Assyrian patriotic Party).
While ADO is with the opposition (FSA, rebels) in Syria, other Assyrians are with Assad's regime (Sootoro and GPU), in Iraq Zow'aa try to not be under KRG rules...
We can't be neutral.

The whole middle-east is waging war on itself, Kurds against Kurds, Arabs against Arabs, ISIS against all, Turkey laughing at them,  just sending F16 at them.
What can we do then?
 

Etain

Member
mrzurnaci said:
Kurds only tribally unite when they're threatened...

Similar to Jews and Assyrians; when we're ALL feeling equally threatened, especially by death, Assyrians and Jews unite for the sake of survival...

This culminated in the creation of Israel because Jews felt threatened in nearly every nation they went and lived in. In order to survive, they felt like they needed a country that'll 100% accept Jews and accept their needs; to do that, they had to make one themselves...

They still feel threatened as well considering that all Israelis must put in military service to protect the state.

Kurds never had such an issue because they were a Muslim people who were privileged compared to Assyrians, Armenians, and Jews living near them.

By being Muslims, Kurds have full rights and certain entitlements reserved for Muslims while Assyrians and Armenians were second class citizens as dictated by any Islamically-run State.

From this, Kurds never felt threatened and they still don't feel threatened because of their swelled numbers resulting from Islamic culture and its oppression on non-Muslims.
Informative.It always seemed Kurds were somewhat...less Muslim? ...than the Arabs and Turks.Not to mention they fight against ISIS now.

So you're saying the high birth rate amongst many peoples in the Middle East is more due to Islam than anything else? How do Assyrians differ in family structure?
 

Cascade

Active member
I wonder, if Assyrians were as populated Kurds in Iraq would they be doing these atrocities? Would they do suicide bombing? Would they massacre?
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Etain said:
Informative.It always seemed Kurds were somewhat...less Muslim? ...than the Arabs and Turks.Not to mention they fight against ISIS now.

So you're saying the high birth rate amongst many peoples in the Middle East is more due to Islam than anything else? How do Assyrians differ in family structure?
it's due to Islam because strict Islamic policy on business and forced charity by religious law practically forces many Muslims to become poor or lower class.

poor couples always have alot of children because having multiple children is their way of trying to bring more income to the household.

more workers from 1 family = more income for the family. This is also combined with the lack of sex education because it's 'haram' to know about the other gender's reproductive system, and how it works, and the oppression of women that is officially sanctioned by Islam.

all 3 factors explain why Muslims have a larger birthrate compared to more educated Muslims who usually have 2 or 3 kids.

A good example of this is Iran, Iran's fertility rate (2014) is 1-2 children while Saudi Arabia is 2-3 children per (average) woman.

difference is that, in Iran, women aren't as restricted and punished as in Saudi Arabia and while both countries have decently educated women.

Going back on topic to Kurds. Kurds have large population mainly because of their bolstered population in the Turkish parts of where they inhabit...

According to the world CIA Factbook, CIA estimates are as of August 2015 ? Turkey: Kurdish 18%, of 81.6 million; Iran: Kurd 10%, of 81.82 million; Iraq: Kurdish 15%-20%, of 37.01 million, Syria: Kurds, Armenians, and other 9.7%, of 17.01 million.

So taking the percentages...

Turkey: 14.688M
Iran: 8.182M
Iraq: 5.55M to 7.4M
Syria: I don't know but estimate is at 2M at best.

 
mrzurnaci said:
it's due to Islam because strict Islamic policy on business and forced charity by religious law practically forces many Muslims to become poor or lower class.

poor couples always have alot of children because having multiple children is their way of trying to bring more income to the household.

more workers from 1 family = more income for the family. This is also combined with the lack of sex education because it's 'haram' to know about the other gender's reproductive system, and how it works, and the oppression of women that is officially sanctioned by Islam.

all 3 factors explain why Muslims have a larger birthrate compared to more educated Muslims who usually have 2 or 3 kids.

A good example of this is Iran, Iran's fertility rate (2014) is 1-2 children while Saudi Arabia is 2-3 children per (average) woman.

difference is that, in Iran, women aren't as restricted and punished as in Saudi Arabia and while both countries have decently educated women.

Going back on topic to Kurds. Kurds have large population mainly because of their bolstered population in the Turkish parts of where they inhabit...

According to the world CIA Factbook, CIA estimates are as of August 2015 ? Turkey: Kurdish 18%, of 81.6 million; Iran: Kurd 10%, of 81.82 million; Iraq: Kurdish 15%-20%, of 37.01 million, Syria: Kurds, Armenians, and other 9.7%, of 17.01 million.

So taking the percentages...

Turkey: 14.688M
Iran: 8.182M
Iraq: 5.55M to 7.4M
Syria: I don't know but estimate is at 2M at best.
Kurdish Areas tend to have high birth rates in Turkey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Turkey_total_fertility_rate_by_province_2013.png
 

Shahin

Member
mrzurnaci said:
What can we do then?
Oh I forgot two other sides:

Arameans nationalists are to this day "neutral", they don't have militias, they are providing good humanitarian help to our people in Syria and Iraq. They also try to raise awareness on our case (under the name Aramean) so they go to meetings, conferences (They went many times at the UN) with politics etc... They really play more and more smarter than our Assyrian organisation in Europe.

We also have the Kaldeans who have a small militias under shi'a rule (which name was Babylon something or whatever...), but those ones are kind of separatists, they only talk for "Iraqi Christians/Catholics" or Chaldeans.

Politically we are far more divided than Kurds, Kurds are more "advanced" but again this is only because they are muslims and as such, what they have achieved is ridiculous.

What can we do ?

Try to unite/gather or submit all our political organisation under just one, hell we would be really stronger, but it's really impossible...
 
Top