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Supporting Iraq and why it's wrong.

elevated

New member
Whether I like the country or not , I was born there and grew up there. I like to identify as being Assyrian only but unfortunately that is not possible yet. The country remains Iraq. When it gets split, we can talk then.
It's not hard to not identify as something, unless it revolves around your physical appearance. You can easily, and I mean very easily, not identify with Iraq.

You want to know how I know this? Because everyone who I've gotten to know enough or if they were just inquisitive about what I was, I simply gave them a little history lesson about our people. I make it very clear that I am not Iranian, Russian, Iraqi, Kuwaiti, or Turkish, regardless of my family being from these countries. They accept it, and no one ever calls me by these groups, because I make it very clear that I do not belong to them.

You can't pick and choose a country based on who the people are and what they do to you. And trust me, I know what the idiots are doing to our people, much better than you know. I am well exposed to Iraqi news almost 24/7.
You said you lived in Canada for quite some time, did you not? If you feel bent on identifying with a country, identify with Canada. The country that allowed you to move there because you no longer wanted to live in Iraq.

Yet you try and justify your support?

But I know to distinguish between a country and its people.
That's a silly answer. I'm guessing your okay if we don't get a country then? What is the point of this website then? Documenting our impending death as a people?
 

Crocodile Bani

Active member
Would a Palestinian ever support Israel?

Would a Tibetan ever support China?

Would an East Timorese ever support Indonesia?

Would a Jew ever support a Nazi?

The answer to the above is NO WAY!

Heck, Egyptians and Algerians are North Africans and Arabs but will never support each other.

Mysteriously, Assyrians who spend their lifetimes talking down Muslims and telling us "Western-born Assyrians" that we never lived in the middle east to know how evil muslims are, are the ones who then support countries like Iraq and Iran. 

Anyway, this discussion has been argued before on this forum and my mind boggles with the justifications given.  Assyrians are so quick to talk down Arabs, Persians, Muslims, etc and talk down Western born Assyrians for "not understanding" but then support the very people they are talking down.
 

ASHOOR

Administrator
Staff member
-When I know ISIS has killed 13 Iraqi teens for watching the Iraqi team play on TV, then I know I am supporting the right team.

-When I know that terrorists have killed hundreds of Iraqis who were out to cheer and celebrate the Iraqi team in public squares, I know I am supporting the right team.

-When I know Assyrians have always been a big part of the Iraqi team, going as far back as the 1950s and till this day-even acknowledged by the Iraqi Football Federation-then I know I am supporting the right team. In fact, Assyrians built the very foundation of the Iraqi football.

-When I know that football is the only thing Iraqis have agreed on (almost) then I know I am supporting the right team.



Just because I support a certain team (assuming we don't have our own Assyrian national team) that doesn't make me any more or less Assyrian than someone else. This is sports. This is soccer. Sure, you can choose to make a statement, that is your choice. I myself don't.  I have lived in Iraq through high school and while I may not be a big fan of a lot of things going on there, the team (again, A SPORT TEAM) is something that has stuck with me. You just won't understand I guess, unless you have grown watching it. The players that make up (and have made up) the Iraqi team are good people and know they represent every Iraqi, regardless of religion or sect. They are average people like me and you. They are are representing a nation not a terrorist organization. In the 2004 Athens Olympics, an Iraqi player was widely and heavily criticized by his teammates and Iraqi alike because he mixed soccer and politics. In a reply to a question, he said "if I wasn't here, I would be home fighting the Americans in Falluja!" This idiot was put into his place because the last thing the Iraqi team needed was politics and religion to be inserted into its operations. It is like a separation of state and religion.

Ok so you don't support the Iraqi team (a sports team) because the country (government and people) hasn't been nice to you. Correct? Ok, so what do you say to Kurds? they too were gassed and in one day, thousands were killed. What do you say to the Shi'ttes? tens of thousands if not more were killed by Saddam. Actually a lot more but I will just keep it to the tens of thousands. Let us go to the Sunnis: do you know how many of them have died in the last 13 years at the hands of the Shi'tte dominated government? I am guessing hundreds of thousands.  So if I am ask the members of the current Iraqi team about what they think of the Semele and Sourya massacres, they will be supportive of what the government did? Or you will try to tell me "it is not about these players, it is about the whole country not being good to us Assyrians?"

Well you get the point...

Or do you?

You wanted to involve politics and blood into a sport? I gave you the answer.

Based on the above, the Iraqi team should be loved by no Iraqi, no just Assyrians, correct? Since, after all, every Iraqi has suffered at one point or another at the hands of the government or the people.

Please make it simple for yourself: I don't think you are from Iraq or were born in Iraq anyway, but you can choose not to like the Iraqi team. And you can even choose to criticize those who do. But just remember, by getting too much caught up in politics when talking sports may not make your argument too valid.

I am not going to base my opinion of the team, and whether I like it or not, on the opinion of some religious savages and terrorist, who ironically enough, don't even recognize something called Iraq. To them all it matters is Islam. Iraq means nothing. The religion comes first. When they kick and kill our people (and their own) they are not doing it in the name of the country. They don't even love Iraq. They are doing it in the name of Islam. Be aware of this distinction. I am more than happy to do something that pisses off the terrorists.

And to make it clear, I may sound like I am so into the Iraqi state and support it wholeheartedly. Read my other posts (there are thousands of them) and I am usually against a lot of things happening in that country. Sometimes too much against. I support the team a lot more than I support the country, though I do wish for the country to remain united, otherwise, if separation is its fate, then I hope we as Assyrians get something of our own, and don't live in a country called Kurdistan.



ASHOOR
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Iraq shouldn't even have existed... It's an artificial country that's only held together by dictators...

Kurds and Shi'a Arabs are going to split it anyways...
 

ASHOOR

Administrator
Staff member
mrzurnaci said:
Iraq shouldn't even have existed... It's an artificial country that's only held together by dictators...

Kurds and Shi'a Arabs are going to split it anyways...

Yes, you are right, but it has existed now. Until it gets split, most Assyrians are part of it and we have no choice. Well we do have a choice in packing and leaving and letting the Kurds and Arabs take over. That is already happening, isn't it?


ASHOOR
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
ASHOOR said:
Yes, you are right, but it has existed now. Until it gets split, most Assyrians are part of it and we have no choice. Well we do have a choice in packing and leaving and letting the Kurds and Arabs take over. That is already happening, isn't it?


ASHOOR

Nobody is telling us to pack up and leave except the (foolish) Diaspora and themselves...
 

elevated

New member
Crocodile Bani said:
Would a Palestinian ever support Israel?

Would a Tibetan ever support China?

Would an East Timorese ever support Indonesia?

Would a Jew ever support a Nazi?

The answer to the above is NO WAY!

Heck, Egyptians and Algerians are North Africans and Arabs but will never support each other.

Mysteriously, Assyrians who spend their lifetimes talking down Muslims and telling us "Western-born Assyrians" that we never lived in the middle east to know how evil muslims are, are the ones who then support countries like Iraq and Iran. 

Anyway, this discussion has been argued before on this forum and my mind boggles with the justifications given.  Assyrians are so quick to talk down Arabs, Persians, Muslims, etc and talk down Western born Assyrians for "not understanding" but then support the very people they are talking down.

This is exactly correct. I don't know why we have such a complex as a people.
 

elevated

New member
ASHOOR said:
Yes, you are right, but it has existed now. Until it gets split, most Assyrians are part of it and we have no choice. Well we do have a choice in packing and leaving and letting the Kurds and Arabs take over. That is already happening, isn't it?


ASHOOR

More are actually a part of "kurdistan" than iraq proper, so there is no point in supporting iraq.

Yeah, it's been happening since Iraq was created, which is exactly why no Assyrian should be supporting them!
 

elevated

New member
ASHOOR said:
-When I know ISIS has killed 13 Iraqi teens for watching the Iraqi team play on TV, then I know I am supporting the right team.

-When I know that terrorists have killed hundreds of Iraqis who were out to cheer and celebrate the Iraqi team in public squares, I know I am supporting the right team.

-When I know Assyrians have always been a big part of the Iraqi team, going as far back as the 1950s and till this day-even acknowledged by the Iraqi Football Federation-then I know I am supporting the right team. In fact, Assyrians built the very foundation of the Iraqi football.

-When I know that football is the only thing Iraqis have agreed on (almost) then I know I am supporting the right team.



Just because I support a certain team (assuming we don't have our own Assyrian national team) that doesn't make me any more or less Assyrian than someone else. This is sports. This is soccer. Sure, you can choose to make a statement, that is your choice. I myself don't.  I have lived in Iraq through high school and while I may not be a big fan of a lot of things going on there, the team (again, A SPORT TEAM) is something that has stuck with me. You just won't understand I guess, unless you have grown watching it. The players that make up (and have made up) the Iraqi team are good people and know they represent every Iraqi, regardless of religion or sect. They are average people like me and you. They are are representing a nation not a terrorist organization. In the 2004 Athens Olympics, an Iraqi player was widely and heavily criticized by his teammates and Iraqi alike because he mixed soccer and politics. In a reply to a question, he said "if I wasn't here, I would be home fighting the Americans in Falluja!" This idiot was put into his place because the last thing the Iraqi team needed was politics and religion to be inserted into its operations. It is like a separation of state and religion.

Ok so you don't support the Iraqi team (a sports team) because the country (government and people) hasn't been nice to you. Correct? Ok, so what do you say to Kurds? they too were gassed and in one day, thousands were killed. What do you say to the Shi'ttes? tens of thousands if not more were killed by Saddam. Actually a lot more but I will just keep it to the tens of thousands. Let us go to the Sunnis: do you know how many of them have died in the last 13 years at the hands of the Shi'tte dominated government? I am guessing hundreds of thousands.  So if I am ask the members of the current Iraqi team about what they think of the Semele and Sourya massacres, they will be supportive of what the government did? Or you will try to tell me "it is not about these players, it is about the whole country not being good to us Assyrians?"

Well you get the point...

Or do you?

You wanted to involve politics and blood into a sport? I gave you the answer.

Based on the above, the Iraqi team should be loved by no Iraqi, no just Assyrians, correct? Since, after all, every Iraqi has suffered at one point or another at the hands of the government or the people.

Please make it simple for yourself: I don't think you are from Iraq or were born in Iraq anyway, but you can choose not to like the Iraqi team. And you can even choose to criticize those who do. But just remember, by getting too much caught up in politics when talking sports may not make your argument too valid.

I am not going to base my opinion of the team, and whether I like it or not, on the opinion of some religious savages and terrorist, who ironically enough, don't even recognize something called Iraq. To them all it matters is Islam. Iraq means nothing. The religion comes first. When they kick and kill our people (and their own) they are not doing it in the name of the country. They don't even love Iraq. They are doing it in the name of Islam. Be aware of this distinction. I am more than happy to do something that pisses off the terrorists.

And to make it clear, I may sound like I am so into the Iraqi state and support it wholeheartedly. Read my other posts (there are thousands of them) and I am usually against a lot of things happening in that country. Sometimes too much against. I support the team a lot more than I support the country, though I do wish for the country to remain united, otherwise, if separation is its fate, then I hope we as Assyrians get something of our own, and don't live in a country called Kurdistan.



ASHOOR

You are just buying into media sensationalism. IS will disappear sooner or later, and if not, they will become another North Korea or just attack their own Muslim civilians like Pakistan and Somalia. All of which is none of our concern, but their fellow Muslims. You are on the wrong side of things, as always amongst our people.

Why do you hope it stays united? Do you know how selfish that is? You're basically giving a big "**** you" to Assyrians from other countries by making such a statement.

All of those groups listed have others to help them. There are millions upon millions of Kurds, Arabs, Sunni's, Shia's, Turks(inc Azeri's and Turkmen). There are only four million Assyrians, and the only people who would actually help us if they could, would be other Middle Eastern Christians, if they actually had power. That is why we have to help ourselves and not rely on Arabs, Kurds, or anyone else. We can accept aid and weapons from Americans and Europeans, but other than that, we don't need help from our wonderful neighbors.
 

ASHOOR

Administrator
Staff member
Crocodile Bani said:
Would a Palestinian ever support Israel?

Would a Tibetan ever support China?

Would an East Timorese ever support Indonesia?

Would a Jew ever support a Nazi?

The answer to the above is NO WAY!

Heck, Egyptians and Algerians are North Africans and Arabs but will never support each other.

Mysteriously, Assyrians who spend their lifetimes talking down Muslims and telling us "Western-born Assyrians" that we never lived in the middle east to know how evil muslims are, are the ones who then support countries like Iraq and Iran. 

Anyway, this discussion has been argued before on this forum and my mind boggles with the justifications given.  Assyrians are so quick to talk down Arabs, Persians, Muslims, etc and talk down Western born Assyrians for "not understanding" but then support the very people they are talking down.

Bani, come on you know better than this. None of these you mentioned are similar to our situation. Let us go through them:

Would a Palestinian ever support Israel? come on, the two are two different countries (even if the former are still not fully recognized)

Would a Tibetan ever support China? Tibet is virtually autonomous as a region.

Would an East Timorese ever support Indonesia? No, because East Timor is a country already. They got their independence from Indonesia.

Would a Jew ever support a Nazi? now you are mixing a religion with a political ideology. It is like asking "Would a Buddhist support a communist?'

If and when Assyria becomes a country and we are still supporting Iraq, then you can question us. Until then, the closest Assyrians (at least those in Iraq) have to a team, is the Iraqi team.

It is something you guys will not get. So you should probably just drop it and move on.

ASHOOR
 

ASHOOR

Administrator
Staff member
elevated said:
Why do you hope it stays united? Do you know how selfish that is? You're basically giving a big "**** you" to Assyrians from other countries by making such a statement.

What is the alternative? Division, right? What are the countries that will arise from that?

Let us see, this should be fun...


ASHOOR
 

elevated

New member
ASHOOR said:
Would a Palestinian ever support Israel? come on, the two are two different countries (even if the former are still not fully recognized)
I don't support Palestine, and this  was the only one of his points I disagreed with. They used their children to bomb schools, 'nough said.

Would a Tibetan ever support China? Tibet is virtually autonomous as a region.
Tibetans are persecuted just like us. Unlike Assyrians though, they have no hope of independence because they are a part of China.

Would an East Timorese ever support Indonesia? No, because East Timor is a country already. They got their independence from Indonesia.
A Papuan certainly wouldn't support Indonesia. Indonesians have massacred them, and stolen half of their island, and continue to colonize it.

Would a Jew ever support a Nazi? now you are mixing a religion with a political ideology. It is like asking "Would a Buddhist support a communist?'
Arabism and Kurdism are both basically the same thing. They have an undeserved superiority complex and have sought the destruction of our identity multiple time. Jews are also an ethnic group, and Hitler attacked Slavs too.

If and when Assyria becomes a country and we are still supporting Iraq, then you can question us. Until then, the closest Assyrians (at least those in Iraq) have to a team, is the Iraqi team.
We have two in Sweden. That's enough for everyone.

It is something you guys will not get. So you should probably just drop it and move on.

ASHOOR

I think you do not get it.
 

elevated

New member
ASHOOR said:
What is the alternative? Division, right? What are the countries that will arise from that?

Let us see, this should be fun...


ASHOOR

You act as if living under Arabs is somehow better than Kurds. They are both terrible. So why exactly does it matter if it was under iraq or "kurdistan?"
 

ASHOOR

Administrator
Staff member
You have two teams in Sweden? I am assuming you are referring to Assyriska and Syrianska? :mfr_lol::giggle:

-Did you know that these two are clubs and not national teams?

-Yes I do support Assyriska 100%, but again it is a club and it is not the only one in the world. There are many other Assyrian teams around the world, some that have come close to being in the first division league.

-No I don't support Syrianiska, at least not with the attitude its fans and management have towards us Assyrians.


When Assyriska plays in the world cup, Euro Cup etc., please remind me, so I can support them. Heck I hope they play Iraq and beat them 10-0, that would be truly something. I am afraid though that will never happen because it is a club, not a national team!


ASHOOR
 

ASHOOR

Administrator
Staff member
elevated said:
You act as if living under Arabs is somehow better than Kurds. They are both terrible. So why exactly does it matter if it was under iraq or "kurdistan?"

Yes, both are bad. Trying to say one is better than the other won't be a good attempt on my part, even though there are pros and cons for each situation.

As for why I don't want division, it is for several reasons:

-Kurds will end up getting their own country.
-Our people will further be split between the Kurds in the North and Baghdad in the middle (and maybe even some few hundreds in the south)

Unfortunately, whether Iraq stays united or divided is not up to me, and at the rate it is going, if the Sunnis can't co-exist with the Shi'ttes, then division is the only solution.

Other than that, to me, the only time Iraq should be divided is if they guarantee us our own country.



ASHOOR
 

Crocodile Bani

Active member
ASHOOR said:
Bani, come on you know better than this. None of these you mentioned are similar to our situation. Let us go through them:

Would a Palestinian ever support Israel? come on, the two are two different countries (even if the former are still not fully recognized)

Would a Tibetan ever support China? Tibet is virtually autonomous as a region.

Would an East Timorese ever support Indonesia? No, because East Timor is a country already. They got their independence from Indonesia.

Would a Jew ever support a Nazi? now you are mixing a religion with a political ideology. It is like asking "Would a Buddhist support a communist?'

If and when Assyria becomes a country and we are still supporting Iraq, then you can question us. Until then, the closest Assyrians (at least those in Iraq) have to a team, is the Iraqi team.

It is something you guys will not get. So you should probably just drop it and move on.

ASHOOR

Watching too much CNN I see.  Palestine has been occupied by Israel since 1948 or 1967 depending on your political persuasion.  Either way, Palestinians are being massacred day by day just like our Assyrians, and therefore it makes no sense for Palestinians to ever support Israel.  Whenever an Arab represents Israel, both Arabs and Jews label him a traitor.  Contradictory to what CNN and BBC tell you, Palestine is recognised by almost everyone apart from Israel.  Even the American government recognise it but will not help them.  As everyone knows, Israel has America by the balls.

Tibet is under occupation of China for as long as Israel has been occupying Palestine.  They have no rights.  The Tibetans are not even allowed to speak their language and visitors to China are restricted in visiting Tibet.  I am more than happy to invite my Tibetan friends on this board to educate you on what they are going through.  Their situation is identical to Palestine which is almost identical to Assyrians.  They have been massacred in the same way Assyrians and even Kurds have been in Iraq.  No Tibetan will ever support China in anything.

East Timor may now been independent but the scars of the 1975 invasion, after they were given independence from Portugal will remain forever.  So much blood was spilt and there is always the threat of another invasion, either by the Indonesian army or by Indonesian nationalist groups.  As you know I lived in Darwin, Australia which is only a 2 hour flight from East Timor.  We have a large Timorese community in Darwin.  Probably the largest ethnic community in Darwin.  They would sell their soul to the devil before supporting Indonesia.  getting the Indonesians out of East Timor cost them Timorese so much blood.

Last time I checked, 6 million Jews (supposedly) died in the hands of the Nazis.  Therefore there is a contradiction in a Jew supporting a Nazi.  I can't believe that would even be question.  Compare this situation with Assyrians and Turks and you may see the point.
 

Crocodile Bani

Active member
elevated said:
I don't support Palestine, and this  was the only one of his points I disagreed with. They used their children to bomb schools, 'nough said.
Looks like somebody else watches too much CNN and BBC.  This nonsense has been debunked over and over again.  Palestinians using human shields has been debunked over and over again.  In fact, plenty of evidence that shows that Israel does exactly that.  I never understood why so many Assyrians hate Palestinians.  45% of them are Christians (again CNN would never mention that) and they have been through the same hardships that Assyrians have.  As Nelson Mandela said, "our freedom will not be complete without the freedom of the Palestinians".  He said it.  Nelson Mandela, one of the greatest men to ever live.

Speaking of which, I forgot to add the example to my original post.  During the apartheid era, no black South African ever supported the South African rugby team or cricket team.  They do now, because the national team now represents them now.
 

elevated

New member
Ashoor, so there is no difference. iraq isn't our state either. This is why it makes no sense why a lot of Assyrians choose a side, like it matters.

No Bani, I don't even watch CNN or read BBC articles. Palestine doesn't need to exist. They have Jordan and aren't any more native to the region than Jews.

I don't believe your figure about Palestinian Christians. Source? They are not that great in numbers, and a very large portion choose to live in the Israeli portion of the country, instead of with their Muslim kin.

Look at how Muslims treat Christians in Bethelem, a former Christian city, now predominatly Muslim. They are the ones that have stolen Christian Palestinian cities/towns more so than the Jews.

Nelson Mandela wasnt that great of a person and a Palestinian identity is a recent invention, just like all the Arabs from other countries.
 

Kebabs?s

New member
elevated said:
Ashoor, so there is no difference. iraq isn't our state either. This is why it makes no sense why a lot of Assyrians choose a side, like it matters.

No Bani, I don't even watch CNN or read BBC articles. Palestine doesn't need to exist. They have Jordan and aren't any more native to the region than Jews.

I don't believe your figure about Palestinian Christians. Source? They are not that large, and a very large portion choose to live in the Israeli portion of the country, instead of with their Muslim kin. Look at how Muslims treat Christians in Bethelem, a former Christian city, now Muslims. They are the ones that have stolen Christian Palestinian cities/towns more so than the Jews.
dont even bother with him, hes a brainwashed assyrian(arab) he doesnt use his brain
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
elevated said:
Ashoor, so there is no difference. iraq isn't our state either. This is why it makes no sense why a lot of Assyrians choose a side, like it matters.

No Bani, I don't even watch CNN or read BBC articles. Palestine doesn't need to exist. They have Jordan and aren't any more native to the region than Jews.

I don't believe your figure about Palestinian Christians. Source? They are not that great in numbers, and a very large portion choose to live in the Israeli portion of the country, instead of with their Muslim kin.

Look at how Muslims treat Christians in Bethelem, a former Christian city, now predominatly Muslim. They are the ones that have stolen Christian Palestinian cities/towns more so than the Jews.

Nelson Mandela wasnt that great of a person and a Palestinian identity is a recent invention, just like all the Arabs from other countries.

Point is that Iraq needs to be split.

If we don't choose to become self-reliant, then we all know that We'll be awarded Kurdistani citizenship...

Not that it's a bad thing but we should be self-reliant and not depend on others...

We can't have independence without self-reliance.
 
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