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Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?

mrzurnaci

New member
Neon said:
Of course I suck. I thought I admitted that. Sometimes people naturally have no ability to fluently learn a language, a script or anything. It just won't happen. My friend still has an Iranian accent, despite coming here as a preteen in 2003. He just cannot have an Australian accent.
that's your fault then.

Neon said:
Don't orly this. You know very well that Latin is very easy. You're even writing in it right now. Lmao.
?????, ?????? ????? ??????. ??? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????

Latin is not very easy, the only reason you and me know is because we were forced to learn it in the West...

If the West was using Klingon, you'd be asking to implement Klingon...

Neon said:
No citation needed. Over 75% of the world uses the Latin script, from those in Africa to native Canadians.
Canada uses the Latin Script though, so do certain countries in Africa...

Yeah, because languages are species. And it's not like I was accustomed to the older Aramaic scripts? We were all grown with the modern Syriac script. So nice try.
Well, you probably dedicated a lot of time and hardship to fluently learn the script. Good for you I guess? But you must know that everybody is like you.
And you should study the Assyrian vocab harder. Lmao.
[/quote]

Languages are tools, switching to Latin presents no benefits.
Are you asking for this for business/economic reasons? What's the point when business people still need to learn the language...

Secondly, why Latin and why not Greek? Why not Hebrew? Why not Arabic?

We're not switching alphabets, end of discussion.
 
M

member 326969 Global

Guest
There are two things we are trying to preserve here.

A) The spoken language -  knowledge of the language in it's natural form.
B) The script - knowledge of how to write A.

B is easy to learn, it doesn't take long at all to learn a script. What's hard is teaching someone a language. B is entirely dependent on the existence of A but, A is not dependent on B.

A is the priority and I see B as merely a vessel by which A stays afloat. Therefore, I propose we adopt the Latin script to maximise the preservation of A. The Latin script is well known throughout the world, even by Assyrians. The Latin script has been heavily integrated into modern technology and society therefore, to use it as the medium to write Assyrian, is to maximise our opportunities to write Assyrian, increasing the likelihood of A's survival.

Once we have our own state, then we can implement our own script. Our survival is dependent on the preservation of our identity. Our language is the key to preserving our identity. Right now, the survival of our language is dependent on our malleability. We need to make this sacrifice and move on to a Latinate script for the time being.

This will mean that we will have so many more Assyrians communicating to each other online in Surit - we will still have our "mrzurnachis" who will go the step further by learning the traditional script but that nostalgia or sense of tradition should not necessitate communal loyalty to conventional use of a script which will impede our efforts to keep the language alive and well.

 

Kosovo1389

New member
This is such a suicidal idea to adopt Latin. Rev. Rasho here in LA has put in so much time and effort to teach this alphabet to the people to combat illiteracy, which is especially common in CA among Assyrians.
 

mrzurnaci

New member
Sharukinu said:
There are two things we are trying to preserve here.

A) The spoken language -  knowledge of the language in it's natural form.
B) The script - knowledge of how to write A.

B is easy to learn, it doesn't take long at all to learn a script. What's hard is teaching someone a language. B is entirely dependent on the existence of A but, A is not dependent on B.

A is the priority and I see B as merely a vessel by which A stays afloat. Therefore, I propose we adopt the Latin script to maximise the preservation of A. The Latin script is well known throughout the world, even by Assyrians. The Latin script has been heavily integrated into modern technology and society therefore, to use it as the medium to write Assyrian, is to maximise our opportunities to write Assyrian, increasing the likelihood of A's survival.

Once we have our own state, then we can implement our own script. Our survival is dependent on the preservation of our identity. Our language is the key to preserving our identity. Right now, the survival of our language is dependent on our malleability. We need to make this sacrifice and move on to a Latinate script for the time being.

This will mean that we will have so many more Assyrians communicating to each other online in Surit - we will still have our "mrzurnachis" who will go the step further by learning the traditional script but that nostalgia or sense of tradition should not necessitate communal loyalty to conventional use of a script which will impede our efforts to keep the language alive and well.
OR the lazy parents can make sure their kids learn the alphabets then we wouldn't be at this issue...

Again, the only reason Neon wants Latin is because that's the first alphabet he learned... If his parents taught him to read syriac while school taught him latin, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Language is easy when you're a kid, our lazy parents do not take advantage of such precious time to teach us the alphabet.

Carlo has already explained the benefits of being bilingual, especially speaking Sureth and English.
I'm pretty sure the benefits are also there with knowing both the Latin and Syriac alphabets...

Also, Neon doesn't know this but I know how to read Hebrew. I learned it (pretty fast) so I could read the Aramaic words in Wiktionary which are all written in Hebrew alphabet.

At our grown age, the only way to improve is to practice... Hopefully when we have kids unlike Neon, we'll remember to teach them the language and the alphabet...
 
M

member 326969 Global

Guest
Kosovo1389 said:
This is such a suicidal idea to adopt Latin. Rev. Rasho here in LA has put in so much time and effort to teach this alphabet to the people to combat illiteracy, which is especially common in CA among Assyrians.
It's not a suicidal idea, it's exactly the opposite. We can lose knowledge of the script and regain it easily in a single generation but if we lose knowledge of the language, we have no hope. We need to maximise the number of Assyrians who can speak Assyrian, their fluency, and the amount that the language is used in practice. If you want to keep the language alive, the Latin alphabet is the way to get the largest number of Assyrians communicating to each other in writing in Assyrian and therefore, keep the language alive.



mrzurnaci said:
OR the lazy parents can make sure their kids learn the alphabets then we wouldn't be at this issue...

Again, the only reason Neon wants Latin is because that's the first alphabet he learned... If his parents taught him to read syriac while school taught him latin, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Language is easy when you're a kid, our lazy parents do not take advantage of such precious time to teach us the alphabet.

Carlo has already explained the benefits of being bilingual, especially speaking Sureth and English.
I'm pretty sure the benefits are also there with knowing both the Latin and Syriac alphabets...

Also, Neon doesn't know this but I know how to read Hebrew. I learned it (pretty fast) so I could read the Aramaic words in Wiktionary which are all written in Hebrew alphabet.

At our grown age, the only way to improve is to practice... Hopefully when we have kids unlike Neon, we'll remember to teach them the language and the alphabet...
Mrzurnachi, we have to stick with the most practical solution. If every Assyrian was like me or you, we wouldn't have much of a need to use the Latin script - although it would still be technologically convenient. We need to keep the language alive - the script is secondary. In this case, sticking to the traditional Assyrian scripts will actually reduce the amount of time Assyrians spend writing in Assyrian. We are stateless and scattered, we need to keep our language alive and the Latin script is the most effective way to do that because it is the most convenient way to do that and people don't just lean towards convenience, their addicted to it.

Let's take this forum as an example. Guess how many users here can hold a conversation in Assyrian - I'm guessing 60-80%. Now guess how many of them know how to read and write in our any of our traditional scripts; now guess how many of those have access, or are bothered, to install the script on their computer, maybe buy an Assyrian-Latinate keybaord etc. ..Sticking to our traditional script will certainly reduce the amount that Assyrian is communicated through writing.

Now imagine we used the Latin script to express ourselves; of that 60-80%, we might actually get half to regularly speak to each other in Assyrian online. This is not to devalue or forsake our Script, it is to keep our language alive. Try having a written conversation here, with our users, in Surit - it won't happen except among a very small group of individuals. That's preventing us from using our language and, if you don't use it, you lose it.
 

mrzurnaci

New member
Sharukinu said:
It's not a suicidal idea, it's exactly the opposite. We can lose knowledge of the script and regain it easily in a single generation but if we lose knowledge of the language, we have no hope. We need to maximise the number of Assyrians who can speak Assyrian, their fluency, and the amount that the language is used in practice. If you want to keep the language alive, the Latin alphabet is the way to get the largest number of Assyrians communicating to each other in writing in Assyrian and therefore, keep the language alive.



Mrzurnachi, we have to stick with the most practical solution. If every Assyrian was like me or you, we wouldn't have much of a need to use the Latin script - although it would still be technologically convenient. We need to keep the language alive - the script is secondary. In this case, sticking to the traditional Assyrian scripts will actually reduce the amount of time Assyrians spend writing in Assyrian. We are stateless and scattered, we need to keep our language alive and the Latin script is the most effective way to do that because it is the most convenient way to do that and people don't just lean towards convenience, their addicted to it.

Let's take this forum as an example. Guess how many users here can hold a conversation in Assyrian - I'm guessing 60-80%. Now guess how many of them know how to read and write in our any of our traditional scripts; now guess how many of those have access, or are bothered, to install the script on their computer, maybe buy an Assyrian-Latinate keybaord etc. ..Sticking to our traditional script will certainly reduce the amount that Assyrian is communicated through writing.

Now imagine we used the Latin script to express ourselves; of that 60-80%, we might actually get half to regularly speak to each other in Assyrian online. This is not to devalue or forsake our Script, it is to keep our language alive. Try having a written conversation here, with our users, in Surit - it won't happen except among a very small group of individuals. That's preventing us from using our language and, if you don't use it, you lose it.
No the script is not necessary, we have places like Beth Mardutho keeping the language alive but the only way to keep it alive is FOR PEOPLE TO SPEAK IT. What difference does it make to have different alphabet if nobody is speaking the language?

Secondly, you do know there's Syriac keyboards now for iPhone right? You can literally message people IN SURETH.

We have typing fonts and keyboard layout FOR SURETH, All this hard work was done by George Kiraz to help preserve the language and you ghasheemeh want to use Latin?

how about MY CHART that I spent weeks working on? Apparently I've been wasting my time, I should've been working on a Latin-Sureth chart instead...

http://assyrianic.deviantart.com/art/Syriac-Aramaic-Diagram-Chart-479930235


We have sooo many resources in teaching and reading the alphabet. It is not my fault or problem lazy parents don't teach their kids the alphabet. Most parents don't even know the alphabet themselves but they still don't even take the time to make sure their kids learn it...

You guys are putting your focus on the wrong area.
 

Cascade

New member
mrzurnaci said:
that's your fault then.
And it's your fault that you have poor Assyrian grammar and vocab skills, unlike many Assyrians in here. How come I don't get so worked up about it? Instead of showing off about your mighty Syriac reading skills, why not study grammar and learn how to friggin' speak Sureth first? At least I speak it fluently. Just being able to read it won't get you anywhere. If you want to be a spokesperson or an activist for us, they wouldn't sign you up, despite the fact that you can read it.

Speech matters the most.

Latin is not very easy, the only reason you and me know is because we were forced to learn it in the West...
Huh? How were we forced? You're speaking as if we're living in totalitarian societies.

If the West was using Klingon, you'd be asking to implement Klingon...
False equivalence.

Secondly, why Latin and why not Greek? Why not Hebrew? Why not Arabic?
Slippery slope much? Last time I checked most Assyrians are not writing in Greek and Hebrew. Some do write Syriac in Arabic. I thought you'd know that. Why? Because they live in Arab countries and for them it will be convenient. Just the same way for us in the west, Latin would be convenient. Why are you finding it so hard to understand this?

We're not switching alphabets, end of discussion.
Yet again you fail to grasp that I'm not opting for a "switch". -_-

Whether you like it or not, Assyrians in Facebook use either Latin or Arabic to communicate with each other. Deal with it.
 

Cascade

New member
mrzurnaci said:
OR the lazy parents can make sure their kids learn the alphabets then we wouldn't be at this issue...

Again, the only reason Neon wants Latin is because that's the first alphabet he learned... If his parents taught him to read syriac while school taught him latin, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Language is easy when you're a kid, our lazy parents do not take advantage of such precious time to teach us the alphabet.

Carlo has already explained the benefits of being bilingual, especially speaking Sureth and English.
I'm pretty sure the benefits are also there with knowing both the Latin and Syriac alphabets...

Also, Neon doesn't know this but I know how to read Hebrew. I learned it (pretty fast) so I could read the Aramaic words in Wiktionary which are all written in Hebrew alphabet.

At our grown age, the only way to improve is to practice... Hopefully when we have kids unlike Neon, we'll remember to teach them the language and the alphabet...
Why didn't YOUR parents taught you how to speak Assyrian? How come you didn't teach YOURSELF the language? You can hardly carry a decent Assyrian conversation. Instead of forcing yourself to learn Hebrew (which was totally redundant, IMO), you could've taken Assyrian classes and learn how to speak it. Honestly, you are as "bad" as me, in a way. You chose to learn the Syriac script, but not much the language. And I chose to be fluent in Syriac tongue rather than the script. So let's not get on high horses here.

What Sharukinu said was right. The language should be the pivotal priority. Not the script. What matters is that we should be able to speak the language first and keep it "afloat", even if its boat is Latin. But you always happen to put the script first. Why? For your convenience I guess - You are knowledgeable of the script, so therefore others should be obliged to learn it, even they lack knowledge of the language. Yeah, like as if that will totally preserve our language.

Being fluent in a script and horrible at speaking the language is like a beautiful looking cake having no sugar or sweetness.
 

mrzurnaci

New member
Neon said:
Why didn't YOUR parents taught you how to speak Assyrian? How come you didn't teach YOURSELF the language? You can hardly carry a decent Assyrian conversation. Instead of forcing yourself to learn Hebrew (which was totally redundant, IMO), you could've taken Assyrian classes and learn how to speak it. Honestly, you are as "bad" as me, in a way. You chose to learn the Syriac script, but not much the language. And I chose to be fluent in Syriac tongue rather than the script. So let's not get on high horses here.

What Sharukinu said was right. The language should be the pivotal priority. Not the script. What matters is that we should be able to speak the language first and keep it "afloat", even if its boat is Latin. But you always happen to put the script first. Why? For your convenience I guess - You are knowledgeable of the script, so therefore others should be obliged to learn it, even they lack knowledge of the language. Yeah, like as if that will totally preserve our language.

Being fluent in a script and horrible at speaking the language is like a beautiful looking cake having no sugar or sweetness.
My parents did teach me how to speak Sureth, that's what we mostly speak at home; even now I still speak sureth with my parents.

I even go as far as to use my dictionary to converse about more complex topics.

So no, I'm not "as bad as you". My parents taught me the language (both spoke to me as a baby in sureth) and all I simply did was learn the alphabet off wikipedia lol.

Also, I know something you might find interesting Neon.

I have a relative who became a qasha in the church of the east; you should know that he didn't know how to read a lick of sureth AT ALL.
After he became a qasha, they taught him how to read quickly. He could read sureth very fast and you should know that he didn't learn until his late 30s.

I'm not saying or implying anything bad but I found it interesting how he learned relatively quickly and he's able to read it fast enough that you'd think he learned it since high school or something.

Maybe our churches having a specific teaching technique that helps us learn to read and write the alphabet quickly? That's definitely something to inquire about.
 

Cascade

New member
mrzurnaci said:
My parents did teach me how to speak Sureth, that's what we mostly speak at home; even now I still speak sureth with my parents.

I even go as far as to use my dictionary to converse about more complex topics.

So no, I'm not "as bad as you". My parents taught me the language (both spoke to me as a baby in sureth) and all I simply did was learn the alphabet off wikipedia lol.

Also, I know something you might find interesting Neon.

I have a relative who became a qasha in the church of the east; you should know that he didn't know how to read a lick of sureth AT ALL.
After he became a qasha, they taught him how to read quickly. He could read sureth very fast and you should know that he didn't learn until his late 30s.

I'm not saying or implying anything bad but I found it interesting how he learned relatively quickly and he's able to read it fast enough that you'd think he learned it since high school or something.

Maybe our churches having a specific teaching technique that helps us learn to read and write the alphabet quickly? That's definitely something to inquire about.
I thought you naturally speak in broken Assyrian? I could swear that you mentioned this a few years ago. Good for you for learning the alphabet. Nobody say that this a bad thing. But all I can say is that you're no better than me. At least I can speak Assyrian fluently. I'm trying hard to learn more of its vocab. And that's what I'm confusing on the most, as instead of the script - which won't really get me anywhere. Speaking will save the language, not writing it, IMO.

Of course, anyone can learn a script easily. I didn't say that it's completely impossible. I can read Madnhaya rather modestly, but it takes time to complete a sentence. Will I improve if I practice more? Of course. But as I said, I'm focusing on the vocab more (thanks to your Syriac dictionary website). Again, what matters is being knowledgeable in how I speak, not how I write. And the Latin script makes it more convenient to learn the language. If was in Russia, I'd probably be using Cyrillic to read Assyrian.

Our churches should've just stick with one Syriac writing system. The fact that we have two of them (not counting Serto, as it isn't used in our own church) makes it more daunting for us to learn it quickly. If say, our church was stuck with Madnkhaya (the simplest one, IMO), maybe I would've been a natural by now. And not just the church, if every Assyrian writing was written in one script, I'm sure the orthography would've been much tamer for us to get the hang of it. I mean, come one, computers have Estrangelo integrated in them and yet in some other areas (like liturgy booklets) we have Madnkhaya. How is that right?
 

mrzurnaci

New member
Neon said:
I thought you naturally speak in broken Assyrian? I could swear that you mentioned this a few years ago. Good for you for learning the alphabet. Nobody say that this a bad thing. But all I can say is that you're no better than me. At least I can speak Assyrian fluently. I'm trying hard to learn more of its vocab. And that's what I'm confusing on the most, as instead of the script - which won't really get me anywhere. Speaking will save the language, not writing it, IMO.

Of course, anyone can learn a script easily. I didn't say that it's completely impossible. I can read Madnhaya rather modestly, but it takes time to complete a sentence. Will I improve if I practice more? Of course. But as I said, I'm focusing on the vocab more (thanks to your Syriac dictionary website). Again, what matters is being knowledgeable in how I speak, not how I write. And the Latin script makes it more convenient to learn the language. If was in Russia, I'd probably be using Cyrillic to read Assyrian.

Our churches should've just stick with one Syriac writing system. The fact that we have two of them (not counting Serto, as it isn't used in our own church) makes it more daunting for us to learn it quickly. If say, our church was stuck with Madnkhaya (the simplest one, IMO), maybe I would've been a natural by now. And not just the church, if every Assyrian writing was written in one script, I'm sure the orthography would've been much tamer for us to get the hang of it. I mean, come one, computers have Estrangelo integrated in them and yet in some other areas (like liturgy booklets) we have Madnkhaya. How is that right?
What I was thinking concerning the Syriac standard was to put ALL our different alphabets into specific uses.

I was thinking that we could use SerTa/SerTo as our official handwriting format (writing with pencil/pen). MadnHaya can be the internet and typing format, and Estrangelo can be our legal/government/public usage format. Sounds pretty good to me.

I thought all the churches used Estrangelo as the standard?
If not, The only way for our churches to stick to one writing system would be to unite them.

no, I can speak Assyrian more or less fluently but my written Assyrian is broken lol.
 

Cascade

New member
mrzurnaci said:
What I was thinking concerning the Syriac standard was to put ALL our different alphabets into specific uses.

I was thinking that we could use SerTa/SerTo as our official handwriting format (writing with pencil/pen). MadnHaya can be the internet and typing format, and Estrangelo can be our legal/government/public usage format. Sounds pretty good to me.

I thought all the churches used Estrangelo as the standard?
If not, The only way for our churches to stick to one writing system would be to unite them.

no, I can speak Assyrian more or less fluently but my written Assyrian is broken lol.
Well, we could've done Serto from the get-go. Now it's too late. Also, it's not the simplest Assyrian form. At least, most Assyrians are not accustomed to it. The many of us find Madnkhaya the most intelligible and Estrangela comes next.

Our church has liturgical books written in Madnhkhaya form. They're aimed for amateurs or those with basic reading skills I guess. Priests and deacons tend to have Estrangela-scripted books in their hands.

So you speak Assyrian with your parents without frequently using English words? "Mama, masen azen kis my cousin's house please?" - That's not good enough. Lol.
 

mrzurnaci

New member
Neon said:
Well, we could've done Serto from the get-go. Now it's too late. Also, it's not the simplest Assyrian form. At least, most Assyrians are not accustomed to it. The many of us find Madnkhaya the most intelligible and Estrangela comes next.

Our church has liturgical books written in Madnhkhaya form. They're aimed for amateurs or those with basic reading skills I guess. Priests and deacons tend to have Estrangela-scripted books in their hands.

So you speak Assyrian with your parents without frequently using English words? "Mama, masen azen kis my cousin's house please?" - That's not good enough. Lol.
thing is, SerTo really looks like it'd be easy on handwriting. MadnHaya looks good on programming and typing in general so it can be used for academic papers, etc.

I would more probably say, "mum, maSSen azen kis bet d'cuzzeenee pakhalta?"

Here's syriac version -> ???, ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????

Dictinary says "cousin" is "dadha" or ????.  dadhta for female cousins of course.
 

Cascade

New member
mrzurnaci said:
thing is, SerTo really looks like it'd be easy on handwriting. MadnHaya looks good on programming and typing in general so it can be used for academic papers, etc.

I would more probably say, "mum, maSSen azen kis bet d'cuzzeenee pakhalta?"

Here's syriac version -> ???, ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????

Dictinary says "cousin" is "dadha" or ????.  dadhta for female cousins of course.
"Pakhalta" is "I'm sorry". We say "basmalokh/lakh" for please.

Saying "masen azen kis [someone] pakhalta" is grammatically incorrect. You don't say "pakhalta" for please (at least in modern Assyrian). Unless you want to interrupt them (say they're busy talking( you can say "pakhalta, masen azen kis [someone]".
 

mrzurnaci

New member
Neon said:
"Pakhalta" is "I'm sorry". We say "basmalokh/lakh" for please.

Saying "masen azen kis [someone] pakhalta" is grammatically incorrect. You don't say "pakhalta" for please (at least in modern Assyrian). Unless you want to interrupt them (say they're busy talking( you can say "pakhalta, masen azen kis [someone]".
so saying sorry/excuse me throws a whole wrench into the grammar? Still not adopting latin though.
 
Aramaic shouldn't be ditched in terms of writing and reading but for the sake of propagating the language, I think adopting Latin script would be prudent. Additionally, it's not like by doing so we automatically forfeit the learning of our native script, but just bearing in mind how children born in the diaspora are opting to learn the language of the land, it makes it hard for even our speech to proliferate.

It's easier this way and a formal and official means of writing in this script should be legitimised and utilised, so that we can push our language - the learning of our native script should not be neglected though.
 

mrzurnaci

New member
Mr. Tambourine Man said:
Aramaic shouldn't be ditched in terms of writing and reading but for the sake of propagating the language, I think adopting Latin script would be prudent. Additionally, it's not like by doing so we automatically forfeit the learning of our native script, but just bearing in mind how children born in the diaspora are opting to learn the language of the land, it makes it hard for even our speech to proliferate.

It's easier this way and a formal and official means of writing in this script should be legitimised and utilised, so that we can push our language - the learning of our native script should not be neglected though.
If that's the case, I've already done that though. My Syriac diagram chart uses Latin letters to explain the sound each letter makes.
 

Cascade

New member
mrzurnaci said:
so saying sorry/excuse me throws a whole wrench into the grammar? Still not adopting latin though.
What the hell does "sorry/excuse me" have to do with not wanting the Latin alphabet? Instead of bringing up the Latin excuse (which had nothing to do with what we were just talking about Lmao), just admit that you made a mistake with these words. Look, you need more grammatical practice. It seems, you probably just know more Syriac words than the average guy (thanks to your dictionary), but you can't put them properly in a sentence.

And if you're so against the Latin script, why did you incorporate Latin letters into that chart of yours?
 

Cascade

New member
Mr. Tambourine Man said:
Aramaic shouldn't be ditched in terms of writing and reading but for the sake of propagating the language, I think adopting Latin script would be prudent. Additionally, it's not like by doing so we automatically forfeit the learning of our native script, but just bearing in mind how children born in the diaspora are opting to learn the language of the land, it makes it hard for even our speech to proliferate.

It's easier this way and a formal and official means of writing in this script should be legitimised and utilised, so that we can push our language - the learning of our native script should not be neglected though.
I agree with this. And that was my point. I do not want the Syriac script to be "replaced". I just want Latin, since it's so convenient and widely used, to be an alternative for us to communicate with each other. It can keep the language alive.
 

mrzurnaci

New member
Neon said:
you're so against the Latin script, why did you incorporate Latin letters into that chart of yours?
Not against Latin, I'm against using it to write our alphabet.
secondly, I put it in the chart to explain what sound each letter makes/uses.

Which reminds me to ask, have you made a large print of my chart yet to hang up on your wall? :)
 
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