• Our popular and beloved forums are finally back, after being down since April 2018 due to hosting and server issues. We have now switched to a better platform, while maintenaing all data as it was before (contents and user names) . Thank you for your patience and loyalty. If you have any questions, need to report an error, or are having trouble logging in, please email us at: assyrianvoice@rogers.com

Another Controversial Idea: Alliance with Iran?

mrzurnaci

Active member
as we all know from our history, Assyrians have been part of the Persian empire since the time of Cyrus/Kurush.
Serving as loyal soldiers and a major cultural and social influence on Persian society.

I can argue that the Persian empire was more or less the Assyro-Persian civilization (kinda like the Greco-Roman wording)

Given our history and given that Iran is the only country, besides Israel, that has a stable Assyrian population,
Also given that Iran is the only country that recognizes Assyrians and gives them political rights.

would an alliance with Iran be a smart one?
 

AshurayaPlasha

New member
From my understanding, Iran is actually anti-Assyrian, they just use the Assyrian Universal Alliance as a tool to say "See, we treat minorities good" but in actuality, they treat them very bad, by denying their language and religion. There was a recent report where the Iranian government converted a church into a mosque by force, if there is any nation in the middle east that is closest to being friendly with Assyrians, it is Iraqi gov/Iraqi patriotism (not Iraqi pan-Arabism or Sunnism/Kurdism).
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
AshurayaPlasha said:
From my understanding, Iran is actually anti-Assyrian, they just use the Assyrian Universal Alliance as a tool to say "See, we treat minorities good" but in actuality, they treat them very bad, by denying their language and religion. There was a recent report where the Iranian government converted a church into a mosque by force, if there is any nation in the middle east that is closest to being friendly with Assyrians, it is Iraqi gov/Iraqi patriotism (not Iraqi pan-Arabism or Sunnism/Kurdism).

they converted a church into a mosque by force but was it an Assyrian church?

EDIT: They illegally confiscated a Chaldean Church into a mosque.
 

Cascade

Active member
AshurayaPlasha said:
From my understanding, Iran is actually anti-Assyrian, they just use the Assyrian Universal Alliance as a tool to say "See, we treat minorities good" but in actuality, they treat them very bad, by denying their language and religion.
Yes. They probably do that in spite of Turks (since we're not recognized by them).
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Neon said:
Yes. They probably do that in spite of Turks (since we're not recognized by them).

yes, on the good side, Iran has formally recognized Assyrians within the "constitution" of Iran as an ethnic minority.
 

Joe25

New member
mrzurnaci said:
they converted a church into a mosque by force but was it an Assyrian church?

EDIT: They illegally confiscated a Chaldean Church into a mosque.

Doesn't matter. If that's how they treat minorities which includes us, and their constitution approves it they're hopeless if not enemies. The "they're not quite as bad as certain others so they must not be bad" is for the gullible and weak(not you).

It kind of reminds me of Turkey's issues too. They'll treat you better the more you let go of your roots. You can even maintain your non-islamic religion, but you must assimilate.
 
Joe25 said:
Doesn't matter. If that's how they treat minorities which includes us, and their constitution approves it they're hopeless if not enemies. The "they're not quite as bad as certain others so they must not be bad" is for the gullible and weak(not you).

So in other words, be enemies with everyone in the middle east. If not Israel, if not the Arab states then not Iran aswell? Even your political opinions are cringe worthy. Pulling 'enemy' on everyone won't get us anywhere we will be an isolated-hated nation like Israel because we declare enemies on everyone, no nation is perfect (Even it's history) but we have to choose strategic allies in the middle east even if it means being allies with Iran (Look at past relations with Armenia-Iran).
 

Joe25

New member
Assyrian Nationalist said:
So in other words, be enemies with everyone in the middle east. If not Israel, if not the Arab states then not Iran aswell? Even your political opinions are cringe worthy. Pulling 'enemy' on everyone won't get us anywhere we will be an isolated-hated nation like Israel because we declare enemies on everyone, no nation is perfect (Even it's history) but we have to choose strategic allies in the middle east even if it means being allies with Iran (Look at past relations with Armenia-Iran).

No in other words, consider them all enemies so you never let your guard down because that's reality. You can work with certain groups without suffering from Stockholm syndrome. We're already working with another sect of Persians called Kurds, while this is giving us some level of military force they also assasinated one of our best generals. Something like that will happen every time we get a little bit too much success for their liking so it's hit and miss. You don't know history at all. Read a book on Iranian role in the Seyfo if you want to bring up history.
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Joe25 said:
Doesn't matter. If that's how they treat minorities which includes us, and their constitution approves it they're hopeless if not enemies. The "they're not quite as bad as certain others so they must not be bad" is for the gullible and weak(not you).

It kind of reminds me of Turkey's issues too. They'll treat you better the more you let go of your roots. You can even maintain your non-islamic religion, but you must assimilate.

you misunderstand...

"The Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran, ratified in 1979, recognizes Assyrians as a religious minority and ethnic minority and reserves for them one seat in the Islamic Consultative Assembly, the Iranian parliament."
(Hooglund (2008), pp. 128?129)
 
Joe25 said:
No in other words, consider them all enemies so you never let your guard down because that's reality. You can work with certain groups without suffering from Stockholm syndrome. We're already working with another sect of Persians called Kurds, while this is giving us some level of military force they also assasinated one of our best generals. Something like that will happen every time we get a little bit too much success for their liking so it's hit and miss. You don't know history at all. Read a book on Iranian role in the Seyfo if you want to bring up history.

From the understanding of the Seyfo the Ottomans went into Persian lands and killed Assyrian villagers.

The protection of Christians by local Persian civilians is also confirmed in the 1915 British

In Salmas, about 750 Armenian and Assyrian refugees were protected by Iranian civilians in the village

Source: http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/brycereport_armenia.htm

In 1918, about half of the Assyrians of Persia died of Turkish and Kurdish massacres

Source: Baumer, Church of the East, at 263. The Church of the East: An Illustrated History of Assyrian Christianity, Christoph Baumer, I.B. Tauris, 2006.


Only two parts of world war I where their was some type of 'hostility' towards Assyrians from Persians in World war 1.

The first was that Persians were irritated by Assyrians because they thought the Russian empire were using them for strategy and the second was when "Mar Shimmun understood the difficult situation of the Assyrians. His messages in 1918 were persuading Agha Putrus not to fight against Persians, but to make peace with them. Nonetheless, the Assyrians did not put down their weapons, as the Patriarch advised; they chose to attack."

Mar Shimmun, the guy you have as a profile picture and yet you don't know history, lol. Play enemies with everyone as I said you clearly don't know.

and yes, you can't be allies with Kurds but they aren't fully hostile to us. Kurds themselves are fighting with eachother such as PKK-Barzani-PYD (Kurdish groups in Iran).
 

Cascade

Active member
mrzurnaci said:
yes, on the good side, Iran has formally recognized Assyrians within the "constitution" of Iran as an ethnic minority.
I know. I meant that they only "formally recognize" us because Turks are not doing so. They did it in spite of the Turks. The Iranians want to be appear angelic in front of them and be like "hey, look at how nice we are compared to that moderate Islamic country". I'm just reading between the lines. Let's not be too naive.

With that being said, it won't kill if we become allies with Iran or even Turkey. Just as long we're not enemies of Israel (considering how much aid they get), we'll do fine. Heck, I would even begrudgingly condone an alliance with the most savage and despicable country in the world (like Saudi Arabia), if it will do us good. We should be really strategic here. That's how you win in this world.
 

Joe25

New member
Assyrian Nationalist said:
From the understanding of the Seyfo the Ottomans went into Persian lands and killed Assyrian villagers.

Source: http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/brycereport_armenia.htm

Source: Baumer, Church of the East, at 263. The Church of the East: An Illustrated History of Assyrian Christianity, Christoph Baumer, I.B. Tauris, 2006.


Only two parts of world war I where their was some type of 'hostility' towards Assyrians from Persians in World war 1.

The first was that Persians were irritated by Assyrians because they thought the Russian empire were using them for strategy and the second was when "Mar Shimmun understood the difficult situation of the Assyrians. His messages in 1918 were persuading Agha Putrus not to fight against Persians, but to make peace with them. Nonetheless, the Assyrians did not put down their weapons, as the Patriarch advised; they chose to attack."

Mar Shimmun, the guy you have as a profile picture and yet you don't know history, lol. Play enemies with everyone as I said you clearly don't know.

and yes, you can't be allies with Kurds but they aren't fully hostile to us. Kurds themselves are fighting with eachother such as PKK-Barzani-PYD (Kurdish groups in Iran).

You're gonna bring up Mar Shimun Benyamin to defend the Iranians? Hilarious considering they worked together with the Kurds so conspire the assasination on him lead by Simkoo's militia. Everybody knows that but of course you wouldn't as I already said, you're clueless on history. The Persians conspired together with the Kurds to set up the assasination in Salmas to take out the Assyrian leadership.
The Flickering Light of Asia:
http://www.aina.org/books/fla/fla.htm
It soon became apparent that the Tabriz government was not only without knowledge as to the secret activities of the Moslems in Urmia, but it had also a hand in the agitation that led to the Mohammedan uprising against the Christians. The deposed Shah, Mohammed Ali, before his succession to the throne and his subsequent dethronement and exile, as the crown prince, and future King of Persia, had for a bribe of three thousand Toomans ($2,700) given his consent to the Kurdish tribes of Kurdistan to attack his own Christian subjects of Targavar, plunder their homes, and carry away their flocks and cattle, and which, of course, they did. The existing crown prince, now residing in Tabriz, was none other than the brother of the deposed monarch, a fanatical Moslem, and a hater of the Christians. The plan for the assassination of Agha Petros, which was to be followed by a wholesale massacre of the Assyrians in Urmia, having failed so disastrously to the Moslems, superior authorities now concocted the diabolical scheme and formed a more treacherous conspiracy to kill the Patriarch and the Commander-in-Chief of the Assyrian forces; and then to mobilize larger forces in order to carry out the previous program for the extermination of the Christians. They were clever enough to play upon the virtues of their victim. They remembered how earnestly he had pleaded with them, and how sincerely he had manifested his strong desire for peace and friendly relations, with both the Persian authorities, and with the Moslem subjects of Persia

In Salmas at this time resided a notorious brigand by the name of Simkoo. He was undoubtedly the most dreaded, by the Persian authorities, of all the Kurdish chieftains of the Eastern Kurdistan, and was regarded as the strongest of them all. Through the game of diplomacy he had managed to be alternately now on the Persian side and then again on the Turkish side. At the time of the Russian occupation of the State of Azarbaijan, the notorious brigand had surprised his co-religionists, and fought on the side of the Allies as well. He was once captured by the Russian soldiers and taken to Tiflis as a prisoner. But before the collapse of Russia he had succeeded in gaining the favor of the Russian military authorities to secure his freedom, and to bring back with him a considerable supply of arms and ammunition, on the promise that he world use his available force against the Turks. After the Russians had completely withdrawn from Persia, Simkoo, so far as Persia was concerned, became supreme, and since the days of Shah Abbass, no monarch had exercised as great an authority over the boundary lands of the northwestern Persia. The Persian government, of which he was a subject, he had defied, as he could always defy; and so far as the Turks were concerned, he knew he could play the game again by telling them that he was forced into the service of Russia against his will. Simkoo had had one fear only, and that had always risen from the Assyrian marksmen of Targavar, even though they were inferior to his men in numbers. But now that the Assyrian warriors of the hills were also present in Persia, he had become a peaceful subject, and had apparently chosen to live out and far from his old nest of lawlessness in the mountains of Bradoost and Somaie. It was this man that the Persian authorities used as a tool in their hands for the assassination of Mar Shimon. And after he had committed the dastardly deed, he was told, if the Turks failed to make their appearance in Persia by that time, he could escape into the interior of the country and remain there unmolested.

Mar Shimon and his bodyguard of two hundred horsemen arrived in Salmas during the last week of February, 1918. He was welcomed by his own people, and by the Armenians as well. Even the Moslems of Salmas vied with the Christians in the bestowal of honors upon him. Shortly after his arrival he was visited by two emmisaries of the Persian authorities of Tabriz. They came to the Patriarch with that polished hyprocrisy which grows exclusively in the soil of Islam. They reminded him of the letter he had written several months before to the Tabriz authorities, expressing his good will toward the Persian government, and requesting of the latter that he and his people be allowed to reside in Persia as their temporary guests. They officially informed the Patriarch of the "deep appreciation" that was felt by the Persian authorities of the contents of his Beatitude's letter, and that how those authorities had been "glad to serve a humanitarian cause," by gladly opening the gates of their country, to give the Assyrian Christians a place of refuge. But, the emissaries added, inasmuch as the Persian authorities desired to see those boundary lands in perfect peace and tranquility, and inasmuch as they would no longer countenance any local Moslem agitations and uprisings against the Christians, they thought that it would be for the interest of peace, if the only source of trouble that might disturb the tranquility of the country, was eliminated. And that, inasmuch as the Kurdish chieftan had indicated to the Persian authorities, a strong desire to come to an understanding with the Assyrians, it would absolutely insure the desired end, if his Beatitude could likewise assure Simkoo and his followers of his friendly attitude toward the latter as well.

As far as the copy and paste job you made out of context, that was in self defense against the many massacres committed by the persians in Khoi, Urmia, Hamadan, Tabriz etc. The patriach wanted to avoid as much conflict as possible in order to make peace with the persian authorities. Even though he led many battles himself, he was also too trusting of the muslims which eventually caused his demise. The genocide against Assyrians and other christian minorities was ongoing in Iran as well, and here you are blaming Assyrians militias for taking matters into their own hands instead of the muslims.

Of course there were good Iranians who helped Assyrians back then, there were even Turks and Kurds who did the same during the seyfo. It doesn't change what others of their kind did. It's the same story today. There are some good muslims we can work with but we'll always have to look out for their bad apples, that's my point in this thread. For the record, I would prefer Assyrians to be backed by Syria-Russia-Iran(untill the inevitable back-stab).
 

Joe25

New member
mrzurnaci said:
you misunderstand...

"The Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran, ratified in 1979, recognizes Assyrians as a religious minority and ethnic minority and reserves for them one seat in the Islamic Consultative Assembly, the Iranian parliament."
(Hooglund (2008), pp. 128?129)

A constitution is only as strong as it's implementation in real life though. The church conversion to a mosque in Tehran is simply too damning as there's not much of a bigger slap in the face of Assyrians.
The regime has openly admitted to usurping the formerly Christian parish grounds of Chaldean Catholic Church for the purpose of converting them into a center for Islamic prayers.

?The brazen admission displays first and foremost the discriminatory and sectarian policies of the regime vis-a-vis Iran?s religious minorities,? Ali Safavi of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI) said. ?At the same time, it speaks to the failure of Western policy to accommodate the regime in the futile hope that it will promote moderation and tolerance on the domestic front.?

That's not even a group of thugs doing this, it's the Iranian goverment itself and they're open about it.

What does their constitution say about an issue like this? Not that it seems to matter.
 
Joe25 said:
You're gonna bring up Mar Shimun Benyamin to defend the Iranians? Hilarious considering they worked together with the Kurds so conspire the assasination on him lead by Simkoo's militia. Everybody knows that but of course you wouldn't as I already said, you're clueless on history. The Persians conspired together with the Kurds to set up the assasination in Salmas to take out the Assyrian leadership.
The Flickering Light of Asia:
http://www.aina.org/books/fla/fla.htm
As far as the copy and paste job you made out of context, that was in self defense against the many massacres committed by the persians in Khoi, Urmia, Hamadan, Tabriz etc. The patriach wanted to avoid as much conflict as possible in order to make peace with the persian authorities. Even though he led many battles himself, he was also too trusting of the muslims which eventually caused his demise. The genocide against Assyrians and other christian minorities was ongoing in Iran as well, and here you are blaming Assyrians militias for taking matters into their own hands instead of the muslims.

Of course there were good Iranians who helped Assyrians back then, there were even Turks and Kurds who did the same during the seyfo. It doesn't change what others of their kind did. It's the same story today. There are some good muslims we can work with but we'll always have to look out for their bad apples, that's my point in this thread. For the record, I would prefer Assyrians to be backed by Syria-Russia-Iran(untill the inevitable back-stab).

I did copy and paste that's why I quoted.

You can deny what Mar Shimun Benyamin said, as you are usually ignorant with many things. You just located where massacres were commited but majority of sources say Turks who went across into Persian lands, it's not about being allies with Russia.. and yes I agree they are 'some good Muslims' but doesn't mean you can trust them.

I am not blaming Assyrian Miltias for 'taking it into their own hands' really funny coming from someone who is extremely religious where many priests condemned wars against Muslims and Zorostrians for man years causing the Assyrians to be seen as an 'easy target' just like how sub-human Sunni Arabs describe Assyrians in Dora, Baghdad.
 

KingA

New member
mrzurnaci, I appreciate your ideas about making new alliens for our nation. Many Assyrian on this form dont understand that we really need a wise game with  our "good neighbours" in the region. We are a small minority, probably the smallest in Middle East just cant be enemy with Persians, Turks and Kurds together, that does not make any sence and are not logical.
We are good at thinking about what happend in the hisotry but not thinking about a strategy for the future. keep going with your Controversial ideas  :thumbup:
 

Joe25

New member
Assyrian Nationalist said:
Waiting for Joe to reply because he's a liar and a deceiver like a Muslim

Is this really coming from a so called "Assyrian Nationalist" who is defending Iranian muslims over your own people(not that you truly are) even though they massacred us and they would throw you off a rooftop? And I try not to give you too much attention but now you tried to distort history. Needless to say you failed as usual, with your biggest obstacle being your abhorrent english grammar and intellect-level.

You can deny what Mar Shimun Benyamin said

First off, you did not even provide a source for that quote. It shows no further context which is crucial and that is why I exposed your copy and paste jobs. You deliberately tried to make it look like Assyrians were out attacking poor Persians while the patriach was telling them not to, that is how idiotic you've been in this thread.

While I've shown my sources that show Persians massacred Assyrians in many major cities in Iran and the reasoning was the same as the one that the Kurds and Turks used. Which is why Assyrian militias lead by Agha Petros were in many armed conflicts to try to stop the genocide while the patriach was trying to make peace with the Ottoman and Persian goverments, the latter being the same who arranged his assasination and of 100 other bodyguards. That is why there might have been some disagreements between Mar Shimon and Petros, but it has nothing to do with whatever lies you tried to claim.

but majority of sources say Turks who went across into Persian lands

Both Turks AND Persians were doing the killing in Persian lands. This has been proven already, your love for muslim persians isn't enough to refute this.

and yes I agree they are 'some good Muslims' but doesn't mean you can trust them

"There are" not "they are". And thanks for repeating my point.

I am not blaming Assyrian Miltias for 'taking it into their own hands' really funny coming from someone who is extremely religious where many priests condemned wars against Muslims and Zorostrians for man years causing the Assyrians to be seen as an 'easy target' just like how sub-human Sunni Arabs describe Assyrians in Dora, Baghdad

This is what I mean, what are you even trying to say here?  :lol: You are all over the place and extremely incoherent. Re-read that part again, do you even understand what you're saying yourself? I'm seriously laughing at the random incoherence.

This was the big response that I was supposed to answer all this time? lol you're still under the juvenile impression that whoever has the last reply in a thread must always be right which is adorable yet sad.
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Ezidi Kurd said:
Sure, join the Aryans and f*ck the Semitic race altogether with the Jews. The Jews as Semites are the number 1 enemies of the Aryans (Persian + Kurds).

Jews are trying everything that Kurds and Persians start an Aryan-race brother war between each other. It will NEVER happen, Aryan Kurds and Aryan Persians will NEVER going to fight each other for the disgusting Semitic Jews & Sunni Arabs and disgusting Mongoloid Sunni Turks.

Semitic disgusting Jews are trying to destroy the Aryan (Iranid) race. We (the real Kurds)  told Americans, first Turks and Turkey must go down, then the Persian regime will become more 'democratic'.


Aryan Kurds are fighting their own war and for Kurdish Aryan race only and for nobody else, for own Kurdish Aryan race interests. The era that Kurds are fighting for others is over.


Jews are playing with fire. All the evil in West Asia are the Turks and the Semites.


Today, the closest allies of my people (the Ezdi Kurds) are the Persians. Together with the Persians, the Ezdi Kurds are fight against the Sunni Islam. After the Shengal genocide of 2/8/2014 the Persians helped the Ezdi Kurds the most.


At the end of the day, the Semites (Jews included) & Mongoloid Turks will be defeated. So, join the Aryans (Kurds & Persians) before it is to late, because the Aryans will be victorious.


Without Great Kurdistan there will NEVER be an Assyrian state. Arabs, Jews and Turks will NEVER give the Assyrians anything. For the Sunni Muslims Assyrians don't exist. The key to the Assyrian state is Great Kurdistan, period! Aryans will give Assyrians their regions back.

( ?? ?? ??)
 

Cascade

Active member
mrzurnaci said:
( ?? ?? ??)
That's just Alan's alter ego. He was already pissed in the other thread, so he decided to let his anger out in his alternate account. For a "Ezedi" he sure is very protective and defensive when it comes to Islamic Kurds. So I doubt that he's a Yezedi.

Anyway, the Jews are far superior to the Kurds and Persians. Modern history kinda shows that. Look at the success of Jews and look at Kurds. Jealousy and denial is very strong in this one.  :mrgreen:

And Lol, the idea that "Aryan" and "Semite" are races. Never knew that language families show up in your blood. Little did this guy know that Nazis would see Kurds, Assyrians, Arabs and Persians as one "dark" Middle Eastern race. Heck, if Kurds and Persians were in Germany in 1940s, Hitler would've killed them for not possessing Aryan features. :lol:

 
Ezidi Kurd said:
Without Great Kurdistan there will NEVER be an Assyrian state. Arabs, Jews and Turks will NEVER give the Assyrians anything. For the Sunni Muslims Assyrians don't exist. The key to the Assyrian state is Great Kurdistan, period! Aryans will give Assyrians their regions back.

No they won't. Don't push your propaganda and falsehoods here.
 
Top