A NEW WAR

  • Thread starter Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel
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Born. You're making incorrect assumptions.

The suspect with a supermodel sister IS NOT orginally muslim. He is white and converted to Muslim. His sister being a model has had absolutely nothing to do with it other than to show that these suspects come from all walks of life.

Watch this and tell me what you think? It's George Galloway on Sky speaking the truth about Rupert Murdoch's biased media. He's an MP in England. You might have seen him taking on th US Senate and ripping them apart.

I just wish you wouldn't swallow what your President tells you all the time. He's as extreme as the terrorists he proclaims to be eradicating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6axkIKGXPo
 
i didn't realize israel still occupied parts of lebanon, if that's true that should not be the case. and as for those soldiers being ready to attack, they've only attacked hezbollah in a means to capture and disrupt the missle attacks which never stopped. their desire to live in peace is genuine, hezbollah is the trouble maker here.

you can call israel a terrorist, you an call palestine's hamas or hezbollah a terrorist, it really doesn't matter. what i want to focus on is the extremists, because i think extremists DO NOT respresent the will of the people, so you can call israel an extremist state and america or britian, but i think you would be mistaken.

let me further clarify for you....... the fact is hezzbollah is not a democratically ellected government of lebanon. they are a proxy of syria and iran to further the shiite movement and radical islam in general... so let's be very clear, they DO NOT do the will of the lebanese people. Israel, the United States and Britian, etc elected their leaders who then fullfil the people's agenda in one way or another. Hezbollah does not follow rules of engagement to minimize civilian casualties, they are accountable to no one and do as they wish when they wish, and they are not politically controlled by anyone except by proxy through syria and iran. The destruction of Israel and the West has been the goal of Hezbollah and Iran and radical Shiite clerics for a very long time and it still is. You can not negotiate with this. Iran and Syria know this very well which is why they call on Hezbollah to do their dirty work so they can politically wash their hands of it when it suits them.

The Israeli army is accountable to the Israeli government. The government need only to give the word and fighting is stopped 100% instantly. The political agenda of the Israeli government matters not to their military, they follow orders and report to leaders of their country. Hezbollah does whatever they want whenever they want, in spite of Lebanon's government and pushes THEIR OWN agenda (the shiite islamic radical movement) onto the people of lebanon.

The Israeli agenda is only to live in peace. The Radical Shiite Islamic agenda (of Syria and Iran through Hezbollah) is to seek the destruction of Israel and the West, destablize any form of democracy in the Middle East.

So who is the terrorist now? The Israeli forces who follow orders, adhere to their leaders wishes and only want peace? Or Hezbollah that holds a minority role in the Lebanese government and has hi-jacked a nation who kicked out Syria (a Shiite government) to propogate the Shiite agenda and not that of the Lebanese people and do so without regards to loss of civilian life both on Israel's side and that of their own people by using them as human shields?
 
There really is not much point posting any more Born because you will always believe your own opinion as you're headstrong, naive and you think far too simplistically. I will post one final post, I know i won't change your mind but i hope it may educate others who perhaps are slightly more open minded, rational and not as taken by media propoganda that some people have. As Chomsky said 'Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media' and the public who believe every word.

I will call Israel a terrorist state. I will accuse them of war crimes. I will highlight the fact they ignore UN resolution after UN resolution. Why? Cos it's all true.

The inherent bias of the media is obvious to anyone capable of basic analysis. there are two sides to the conflict: israel (plus backers) and hezbollah (plus backers). Each side has its own viewpoint and its own narrative, explaining events and justifying actions. both viewpoints are controversial - i.e. they can and should be questioned, not simply accepted.

The mainstream media (and it really is irrelevant whether it is the bbc, sky, itv, cnn or whatever else), however, consistently take the israeli viewpoint as the objective view. The assumption in the media is that Israel's claims are true: that the Israeli military and political leadership desires peace; that its wars are defensive; that israel's enemies simply feel an irrational hatred towards the jewish state and have no possible legitimate political grievances.

You will have to look long and hard before you find a journalist in a mainstream media organisation suggesting than israel's goal is anything other than self-defence. the closest thing is Robert Fisk in the UK, and he remains the exception which proves the rule.

Criticism of Israel, like criticism of the US in general, is limited to bad eggs: soldiers who go too far, unrepresentative elements; at best we get noble intentions gone awry. try to find a bbc report which hints at israeli aggression or hatred of arabs. you can't: it's unspeakable in our media - despite comments such as:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff

" are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset

?One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
? Rabbi Yaacov Perrin

The same hateful rhetoric is present on the arab side - in the Iranian president's recent speeches, for example. however, the arabs' repugnant rhetoric is repeated and emphasised; Israel's is not.

I mean, last year we even had an orgy of 'Sharon: man of peace'. He is an out and out war criminal, found guilty by his own general staff. a man too extreme even for the Israeli military. And the party he founded is - God save us - a moderate centre party simply because there is an even more extreme bunch of monsters loyal to Netanyahu.

You also seem determined to forget history and forget that Hezbollah was created as a resistance to the Israel invastion. Putting history aside is a bizarre thing to do. To suggest an arbitrary cut off point in a conflict which has been ongoing for over half a century makes it factually incorrect. 

In such a conflict, neither side accepts that it is the instigator: Israel's attack is in response to Hezbollah's kidnapping; Hezbollah's kidnapping is in response to Israel's seizure of its fighters etc etc. the only reason to 'put history aside' is to create an entirely fictitious sense of when the whole thing started. Hezbollah was formed to fight an illegal occupation; in Hezbollah's eyes (rightly or wrongly) the occupation has not ended.

There are still approximately 4 million palestinian refugees who are denied the right of return; there are undemocratic regimes whose stated goal is to 'wipe the state of israel from the map'. you cannot put history to one side and assign blame on the basis of what has happened in the last couple of weeks.

as Howard Zinn says, if you don't know history, it's like you were born yesterday.

Anyway Born. I shall end my post on another quote which perhaps, after all these posts may explain how i feel about this whole situation. Its from Chomsky again:
Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it.

And Born - Please google Shebaa Farms to find out why Hezbollah continue their attacks on Israel - an illegal occupying force.
 
I understand everything you just wrote, I really do. And I disagree with none of it (except that last line).

Both sides obviously "hate" the other but there is a big difference:

Israel targets militants and their weaponry or infrastructure and at times hits civilians. When that happens their governement publically apologize, their people cry foul and genuinely mourn the loss of life of innocent people.

Hezbollah, Hamas, etc targets anyone that is Israeli, and civilian or not, they celebrate their death.

There has been violence in that region for a very long time. Obviously resentment and hatred runs deep on both sides, but I think TOLERANCE is one thing the Israelis embrace and the Shiite radicals reject, especially in there here and now. I think the Israeli's desire for peace is genuine. Islamic radicals only want peace when it is convenient for them as a means to arm themselves and live to fight for another day.  And if you can prove otherwise I am very interested to hear why.
 
Born2Drv said:
I understand everything you just wrote, I really do. And I disagree with none of it (except that last line).

Both sides obviously "hate" the other but there is a big difference:

Israel targets militants and their weaponry or infrastructure and at times hits civilians. When that happens their governement publically apologize, their people cry foul and genuinely mourn the loss of life of innocent people.

Hezbollah, Hamas, etc targets anyone that is Israeli, and civilian or not, they celebrate their death.


There has been violence in that region for a very long time. Obviously resentment and hatred runs deep on both sides, but I think TOLERANCE is one thing the Israelis embrace and the Shiite radicals reject, especially in there here and now. I think the Israeli's desire for peace is genuine. Islamic radicals only want peace when it is convenient for them as a means to arm themselves and live to fight for another day.  And if you can prove otherwise I am very interested to hear why.

Please tell me that you aren't being serious. Israel has been killing indiscrimantly at a rate of 20:1 - 20 Lebs for every Israeli life PLUS if you look at it the majority of Lebanese life has been civilian and the majority of Israeli deaths have been military. You can't just make statements that are wrong. Just because they fit your version of what you believe is happening doesn't make them factually correct.

The Israeli's are far from tolerant. You said you read my post and agreed with it. So you will agree it's media bias that always puts Israels goals as the objective ones; peaceful nation; defending themselves when it is incorrect. They did and still do occupy Lebanon. They have no right to do so. Hezbollah's aims are to rid Lebanon of Israeli occuption.

And following all these deaths what has the aggressive Israeli state achieved? Nothing.

Two main objectives of Israel failed :-

a) get back their two soldiers
b) destroy Hezbollah

Neither has happened. No sign of the soldiers and Hezbollah have come out stronger than ever, with the Lebanese public behind. Even Fox News is acknowledging this

Israel only managed to destroy the south of lebanon and looking at the pictures on the news it looks like they lost the plot

Israel, one of the most advanced armies in the world failed to beat Hezbollah in a month of fighting. Even Netanyahu admitted it today and you know it's bad when he admits it. The ceasefire has done the Israelis a favour as they were getting nowhere fast. Apart from growing resentment from the world.

Sad thing is this will all happen again. Cyclical nature of violence.
 
One note ladies and gents on the Israeli factor:

The movie Munich is a good tell tale sign of how "tolerant" the Mossad and the Israeli government was back then and now. 

A big big objective of radical Islam (which is been around for centuries) is to destroy Israel, occupy Jerusalem, and rid the world of westernized society, i.e. U.S. and U.K. 
 
RadRides said:
One note ladies and gents on the Israeli factor:

The movie Munich is a good tell tale sign of how "tolerant" the Mossad and the Israeli government was back then and now. 

A big big objective of radical Islam (which is been around for centuries) is to destroy Israel, occupy Jerusalem, and rid the world of westernized society, i.e. U.S. and U.K. 

It has never been an objective of Hezbollah. Their objective is to rid Lebanon of foreign occupiers.

I haven't seen Munich so i don't understand your point but Israel was founded on terrorism and continues to participate in state sponsored terrorism.

No offence but i'll continue to argue with fact and others can continue to argue with rhetoric and overblown, overstated myths and drama.
 
What the media reports to me, who they say won this fight, etc, etc... is all irellevant.

At the end of the day....

You have one civilized country that wants to live in peace and is forced to defend itself at times.

You have another "movement" of radical Islam that wants the unconditional destruction of these people.


You see it as Hezbollah's main objective is to get Israel out of Lebanon and that Israel started everything in the 50's or the 80's or whatever. I see it as a problem much bigger then that, where radical Islam has NEVER tolerated the christians or the jews. And that can be seen historically as well where how Turkey, Syria, Iraq, etc once had large Christian and Jewish populations and they were slaughtered one by one and forced to except Islam.



When Israel fights you see a bunch of people dressed up Israeli uniforms in Israeli military vehicles that has an Israeli flag on it. They hide behind no one, do not use innocent people caught in the middle as human shield and are 100% accountable to their leaders who are politically accountable to the rest of the world.

Hezbollah on the other hand does not value the life of innocent civilians. They do not dress in uninform, they hide amoung civilians, place missled on rooftops of CHRISTIANS or other lebanese civlilans in which they do not value their life, and store their weapons in mosques, schools, or places of mass civilians. Hezbollah is not accountable to anyone, and will do as they wish, whenever they wish with no political reprocussions.

Do you dispute any of that?

Clearly, if Israel wanted Hezbollah destroyed they only need to drop one bomb and they would be domolished. Clearly if Israel wanted their 2 soldiers back they only need to threaten the mass murder of millions of people.

But they do not operate on the same level that Hezbollah and Hamas do in which human life is not respected.

The root cause of all the turmoil in the middle east is NOT Israel's heavy-handed approach of self-defense which goes back 30,50 90 years or so... the root caused is by radical Islam and it's desire to conquer Jerusalem, and to force Islam on the world.
 
Whatever said:
It has never been an objective of Hezbollah. Their objective is to rid Lebanon of foreign occupiers.

You're wrong. Their objective is to force Shiite Islamic ideals on Lebanon through Iran and Syria which before Israel long controlled Lebanon.  Syria was forced to withdraw, there was relative peace between Lebanon and Israel, and Hezbollah's objective became propogating the Shiite Radical Movement that Syria could no longer pursue.
 
Whatever, I basically agreed with you on the Israel/terrorist idea. 

Hezbollah was never created as an auxiliary to the Lebanese defense forces, no matter how limited they were.  Hezbollah, just like Hamas, Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade, Al Qaeda, etc were created to combat Israel and the west.  They are "political" groups aimed at terrorizing non Islamic states for their own selfish, horrifying ideals. 

 
If Hezbollah were bankrolled to the tune of millions and millions of American dollars they would hide behind no one as well. What a ridiculous statement to make. Freedom fighters, terrorists, whatever you want to call them, fight guerilla warfare because this is the only way they can fight.

And please understand i am not condoning what either side does. I will not however accept that there is only one evil in this war. Israel is as much responsible as anyone else. Until this is accepted and t hey are forced, by global means (well by the US because they ignore what the UN say to them) to adhere to peaceful resolutions. To stop occupying land that is not theirs, there will be no resolution and we will be the ones to suffer.
 
By the way, you should stop with the emotive talk of the world becoming Islam. Its hysterical nonsense designed to create fear in the masses to control them.
 
Whatever said:
By the way, you should stop with the emotive talk of the world becoming Islam. Its hysterical nonsense designed to create fear in the masses to control them.

That's why France, Britain, Spain, and parts of the EU populations of Muslims are on the rise.  I can understand your reasoning.  The UK media has always been against US foreign policy, they ridicule Tony Blair, and are so far on the left of things, they can't wipe their own arses.  The US is just as lucky to have morons complain and bark like the BBC and other's.  Oh well, we'll never agree.  :bigarmhug:
 
RadRides said:
Whatever said:
By the way, you should stop with the emotive talk of the world becoming Islam. Its hysterical nonsense designed to create fear in the masses to control them.

That's why France, Britain, Spain, and parts of the EU populations of Muslims are on the rise.  I can understand your reasoning.  The UK media has always been against US foreign policy, they ridicule Tony Blair, and are so far on the left of things, they can't wipe their own arses.  The US is just as lucky to have morons complain and bark like the BBC and other's.  Oh well, we'll never agree.  :bigarmhug:

You clearly don't talk from experiencing our media. They are not left wing at all. Read my post a few posts above. We have very few who directly critcise Israel. We do however have a general public that perhaps doesn't swallow propganda like the Americans do. If you're grateful for media like the digustingly right wing Fox then i pity you.

Anyway i shall leave it for tonight as it's getting late.

 
Radrides hit it EXACTLY on the head.

Why is france leading this international coalition force with Italy in the mix of things as well?

Was there not a riot in France recently in where thousands of young muslim men who were not able to find work and were upset at the government completely torched and ruined Paris and held france under seige for like a month?

I did a quick search and found this article.
http://www.montanasnews.com/articles.php?mode=view&id=2884

The rest of the world is realizing this is not just a Israel VS radical Islam problem.... it's a worldwide problem not because Muslim people are immigrating in mass numbers to western countries, but because the RADICAL elements of islam is coming with them.
 
I don't wish to offend you Born but you're so obssessed with crowing about how muslim extremists and how they will take over the world - keep shouting it at me as you can't see anything else so i'm going to leave it because in all your posts you have had minimal fact and maximum emotive rhetoric with absolutely no basis.

I know very well about the Paris riots but thanks for the link. There is social unrest in many countries, with many religions. The fighting in Paris was not because of religion but because of the social standing of many young Parisians - lack of jobs, discrimination etc. Them being Muslim was secondary, not the primary reason but keep seeing what you want to see.

You're reactionary, extreme and hysterical. Just how your government want you. God forbid you ever inform yourself in a rational, non-biased matter and think for yourself rather than falling for the climate of fear and prejudice that the media have created.

 
.... and until you open your eyes and see what's really going on, there is no convinving you either :)  How many bombs will have to explode in your subways .... how many planes have to be crashed for you to realize the radical islamic movement has come to your town and is spreading worldwide? You are the one that needs a history lesson. These people have been fighting for over a thousand years, this is not a new phenomenon. History records 2-3 dark periods of the Koran where these "holy texts" had dissapeared and no one knew where they were, depending who you ask. Many historians believe that today's modern Koran has been manipulated by various dictators at the time, and seeded with violent materials in order incite riot and force obedience. The Koran is not a book of peace, it is a book of violence and control.

Spend some time on this website: http://prophetofdoom.net/

Tabari IX:69  ?Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.?

Qur?an 2:191  ?And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.?

Tabari VII:97  ?The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ?Kill any Jew who falls under your power.??

Bukhari:V1B1N6  ?Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country.?

YOU are the one that needs to become educated, to read history, read how and why these people justify murder, and that they've murdered and pillaged MILLIONS over the years, many christians and jews in the name of allah. These people only know one way to live --- force Islam on others or murder them. They can not live peacefully with anyone who is not muslim. They can not even live peacefully with other muslisms.
 
deny3.jpg
 
This Islamaphobia being spread by the media and governments is a joke.
They did the same with communism in the 50's and sixties, with the domino theory and the rest of the crap they went on about.

They had people thinking that they were on the verge of being attacked by Russia, and even ran duck and cover commercials, like getting under a desk was gonna protect you in the case of a thermonuclear war, give me a break, and people really bought into that bullsh*t.

Now communism isn't a threat they've created a new one in "radical islam", "terrorism", and they give everything a catchy title "operation freedom", "infinite justice".
They sound like ready made film titles for Shwarzenegger or Segal or someone.

The world has been living with the threat of terrorism for decades upon decades, planes were regularly being hijacked and blown up back in the 70's and 80's.
So are we to believe that this is a new phenomenon thats just gripped us.
Come on.

Yes there are terrorists out there, yes they will no doubt strike again.

While were on the subject of history look back at history and you will see, In the end the only way Al Qaeda or whoever else is out there will be stopped is when the Government of the US or some intermediary on their behalf sits down and does a deal or negotiates with them.
It happened with the ANC, the South African Government were adamant they wouldnt negotiate with them because they were a terrorist organisation, it happened with the IRA, the British Government were adamant they wouldnt negotiate with them they were a terrorist organisation, it even happened with the PLO Israel's most hated terrorist group at one time now reffered to as a "partner for peace".
Even the Libyans, Colnel Gaddaffi was as hated by the US and Britain as Osama Bin Laden, now the West are doing ready to open up and do business with him.

If you want to know how Al Qaeda will be defeated, there it is.
It's niave to think otherwise.
As for terrorism that will never end as long as there are people, someone will have a grudge.
:mrgreen:
 
islamaphobia? you of all poeple should know better. you're assyrian are you not? the middle east was a majority of christians and now it is a majority of islam... they didn't "convert" us by going around and knocking on doors and asking us if we know who god is like those jehova witness robots do.... they did it by telling people they either had to accept islam or be murdered --- of course not before raping and torturing them first....

since when have muslisms been peaceful? since when have the islamic people been tolerant of other cultures and religions? for god sakes these people (animals I call them) can't even get along with eachother... one sect of islam fighting another.... all they know how to do is fight and cause more misery and destruction.... the reason lebanon was able to form some sort of stable democracy in the first place is because people there are not fanatics and there is a mix of all cultures....

if aliens ever invaded our planet, i hope they land in the middle east ---- at least humanity would have a fighting chance....  then again if i had the choice of becoming an alien slave or a muslim, i'd take the first shuttle over to the mothership myself.
 
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