A NEW WAR

[charlie]

Why is it whenever someone who opposes the war against terrorism or tries to ignore the problem of radical islam is confronted......they just bury their head in the sand rather then give a constructive response on how to solve the problem?

As i said before until the underlying issues are tackled then the radicals will keep on recruiting.
How can the US be seen as an even handed power broker when on the one hand it arms and funds Israel, and then on the other draws up the terms of a ceasefire ?????

Look at whats happening to Iraq and Afghanistan, the US has destabalised these countries to the point that they're now in the midst of a civil war.
The "War on Terror" has only acheived one thing.
Creating more terrorists.

The issue here isnt just about the radical Islamists, but the radicals in the Neo Con government in the US and their supporters.
These people scare me more then any terrorist.
They are the ones brainwashing people into thinking that you can fight a "War on Terror", and the narrow minded people who buy into that BS are starting to beleive that they're winning.

A war on terror is nonsense and can never be won, terrorists are not born terrorists they are created by circumstance.

 

[Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel]

Again, your post is not even worth 2 cents because all you did was complain.

What is your SOLUTION??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Stop blaming everyone else and offer up your solution to the problem!!!!! If you have no solution you have no right to complain!!!!

 

[charlie]

Like I said a terrorist/ radical, whatever you want to label them, is brought about by circumstance.
Which means the War on Terror is BS.

But maybe if the US should stop meddling in the middle east and proping up corrupt regimes and arming terrorist states like Israel, if there was a more even distribution of wealth and better education in place especially in Saudi Arabia another US "ally".
Maybe just maybe there would be an end to some of the radicalism.

You cant bomb countries into accepting democracy.
By your own admission and I quote "I think we need a change in strategy because clearly what we're doing is not all that effective"
DAMN RIGHT, its making things worse.

You want answers but they're not the answers you want to hear, because some people have been brain washed by the media and government into thinking the US is the solution and not part of the overall problem, the answers you and every arm chair general want, is to bomb this, or bomb that, as long as it's someone else doing the bombing or the fighting on the front line and not you.  :mrgreen:

 

[Whatever]

Again, your post is not even worth 2 cents because all you did was complain.

What is your SOLUTION??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Stop blaming everyone else and offer up your solution to the problem!!!!! If you have no solution you have no right to complain!!!!

Born, i don't have time today to reply but i will tomorrow.

And please do not say posts are worthless because they don't answer YOUR question. Maybe there is no answer. the current answer a 'war on terror' is clearly not working and is wrong' though.

 

[shamirum]

Again, your post is not even worth 2 cents because all you did was complain.

What is your SOLUTION??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Stop blaming everyone else and offer up your solution to the problem!!!!! If you have no solution you have no right to complain!!!!

That is completely illogical. In fact, that's like saying that unless you have the cure for cancer, you have no right to complain about being in pain. Maybe it's time to come up with a better argument.

And please don't resort to calling other people's views (posts) worthless, just because they aren't motivated to kill kill kill to make anything go their way. Not everyone can think like Bush, and I personally thank God for that.

 

[baklawa]

I have family in Syria.  Not exactly the most "democratic" of countries.  But they are happy there.  They live in a mixed neighborhood of Christians (Assyrians -- both east and west -- Armenians, etc.), Kurds, and Arabs (Sunnis and Shiites).  They sleep with the doors and windows open, they have never been harassed by anyone.  Can they criticisize the government? No.  Can they speak against their president? No.  Can they kill their neighbor because they are of a different religious sect/race and get away with it? No.  They look at Iraq and say, "If this is democracy, thanks, but no thanks."  People will exchange their civil liberties for security any day.  It's happening here in the US as we sit here and discuss this.

 

[Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel]

OK well thank you for at least trying to answer my question....

But maybe if the US should stop meddling in the middle east

THEY HAVE TO MEDDLE in the middle east one way or another. Maybe not through the use of bombs or regime change, etc... but if they sit back and do nothing radical Islam will just continue spreading. There were no radicals in the US, Britian, France, etc 50 years ago. Now there are. And don't tell me it's because the US is meddling in their business. It's because these people want the unconditional destruction of Israel and Christianity and Absolute World Domination and Submission into their form of Islam. That's not born2drv's point of view --- that's straight from the horse's mouth... from Osama Bin Laden, from all the radical clerics, from the leader of Iran, etc.

proping up corrupt regimes and arming terrorist states like Israel

Again the US can't just sit around and do nothing, but I think you're correct ---- arming Israel is not the answer. The fighting if any --- should be done from an "independant third party force" ... preferably a mostly Muslim state or somene not connected to the US/Israel in any way... like the Lebanese army themselves, the Iraqi army once they get off their feet, the Turkish, French, Egyptians, etc who have all expressed a desire to be part of this international stabilizing force.

But these 2 points you brought up aren't really answering the question what should we do, you're just saying what we shouldn't do which I don't think is all that constructive, because in my mind trying is better then not trying at all, and I give my government credit for trying their best to resolve this problem.

if there was a more even distribution of wealth and better education in place especially in Saudi Arabia another US "ally".

OK that's your first point about something we SHOULD do, that's good. To be honest, I'm very encouraged by China, Pakistan and India becoming industrialized so rapidly even if that means a loss of jobs and wealth for the US, it really does make me happy. China's GDP rose 10% last quarter and India was very high as well, somewhere around 7-8%. I think I read a report that in China, McDonalds can not build drive-throughs fast enough because everyone is trading their bicycle in for a shiney new car. Wealth is growing in these nations, and this makes me happy especially in Pakistan because when they have wealth, a steady job and want to live life in peace and raise a family, they'll forget about making homemade bombs and killing people, etc. I do think this will happen naturally.  Saudi Arabia is a very different country because they already have wealth but they do not really have a booming economy tranforming the lower class. But I see the US, Britian and Saudi's pouring tons of money in places like Dubai, etc and not just building lots of housing and hotel resorts, but putting in place a thriving western-style downtown core and getting big business in there to offer high tech jobs. I know the same is happening now in Northern Iraq, they're building huge housing centers in gated communities -- also funded by US and British investors in the hopes of getting the people of Iraq a higher quality of living and good jobs, etc.

So I think the US, Britian and Suadi Arabia are doing much more then you think to bring about change and reduce poverty then you realize, and nations like China, India and Pakistan have record growth and are doing it on their own. But like all things this large-scale, these things take time.

And if I insulted you or anyone I apologize. I just get frustrated by people who critisize but offer no constructive solutions.

 

[Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel]

Stop blaming everyone else and offer up your solution to the problem!!!!! If you have no solution you have no right to complain!!!!

That is completely illogical. In fact, that's like saying that unless you have the cure for cancer, you have no right to complain about being in pain. Maybe it's time to come up with a better argument.

Shami, I humbly disagree. I believe this issue of radical islam is one of those in which "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" .... because the more you try to ignore it, the worse the problem becomes. And unlike cancer, there IS a cure for this problem if everyone really wanted to work at it.

My own people, the Americans, honestly really disgust me at times because their attitude is ---- "Why are we fighting? If we stop fighting they won't hate us and will leave us alone." ---- But they're wrong... THEY WILL ALWAYS HATE US, not for what we do, but what we stand for --- peace, liberty, freedom, democracy, capitalism --- in short "The American Dream" which is spreading throughout the globe if you haven't noticed.... some regions are adapting easier then others of course. But they do not like the westernization of world that they see which is changing before their eyes... just look at what's happened in India in the past 20 years, they've literally evolved 200 years in that 20 years by western standards. Islamic Radicals do not want their people to progress and become more civilized. They want to live like they've lived for the past 1000 years and don't want any western influence what-so-ever. And the way they've lived the past 1000 years is by controlling their people and forcing Islam on others.... the "Islamification of the World" is their goal..... anything short of that to them is unnacceptable. And to have their people seek "The American Dream" is 100% totally unnacceptable.

 

[Whatever]

Born. I don't have a solution. If I did I?d be shouting it from the rooftops. I just do not agree with the way we are dealing with it now. Not because i love Islam, not because i am on the side of the Islamic extremists but because
a) I am very uncomfortable with the mass killings of innocent civilians in order to try and weed out a minority (and they are a minority)
b) And this is very important. IT'S NOT WORKING. I don't know how else to put it.

Iraq has descended into a bloody and dangerous civil war. The US/UK can deny it all it wants but that is the situation there at the minute. Yes Saddam has gone but did that end justify what has happened in the country since? Can you honestly, hand on heart, say that now because they get to vote, Iraqis are living a better life? I don't think you'll find a person in Baghdad that will agree.
Hezbollah has become active again and Hamas got into power in Palestine. The only achievement of widespread killing, abuses by the army etc is to gain and garner support for these organisations.

Also let me tell you one thing about these so called Islamic extremists. They could be your next door neighbour. Literally. They are no different to any other Muslim on the surface. Here is some information on the men they have arrested in England over the last few days (and before anyone says send them back - they are mainly British born which means they are as British as I am)

Art student Don Stewart-Whyte switched to Islam as his sister forged a glamorous and successful career parading the catwalks in lingerie for firms including Victoria's Secret, Versace, Armani, and Chanel. Friends of the suspect, one of 24 arrested after raids in London, High Wycombe, Bucks and Birmingham, told how he never got over his father's death.

"I knew him when he joined the Christian church and he told me about trying to kill himself and had scars all over his wrist. He just cried about it all the time. Maybe he got involved in the Muslim faith because it is like a big family and he wanted his back."

Stewart-Whyte, who lives with Dorothy in Hepplewhite Close, High Wycombe, was said to have converted to Islam after turning his back on drink and drugs.

Another convert Ibrahim Savant, 25, is an accountant who lives at who lives at Alkham Road in Stoke Newington, East London, with his pregnant Muslim wife Atika Sidyot - who was also arrested - and her family. He was born with the Christian name Oliver but changed it when he switched to Islam after meeting Atika a few years ago.

Brothers Nabeel Hussain, 17, Umair, 24, and 22-year-old Mehrain were arrested in Hackney, East London. Nabeel lived with a group of youngsters in Royston Gardens and worked in the administration department at nearby St Anne's Hospital. The brother's dad Fazil wept yesterday as he declared: "My boys wouldn't hurt a fly. When the police came to my house, we thought our children had been in an accident"

One suspect held in Walthamstow, East London was a trainee probation officer. On shocked friend said: "Assan is a probation officer trying to help people in the community, not trying to kill them." Khan, of Banbury Rd, worked for Ilford Probation service who last night were unaware of his arrest.

Avid Chelsea fan Assan Abdullah Khan, 21, is doing a degree at the University of Hertfordshire while working. His brother Abdula Ahmed Ali, 25, was also held along with his wife Cossor Ali, mother of a six-month-old baby.

Football-mad Liverpool fan, Waheed Zaman, 23, is a biochemistry student whose dream was to become a doctor. He was due to sit his final exams in two weeks time.
he was described as an excellent role model and an "ideal Muslim" who is a "Londoner first and a Muslim second".

These just sound like normal boys, living normal lives, doing normal things that you and I might do. Hell, i might sit next to Assam Abdullah Khan at Chelsea. Nothing would indicate these boys were Muslim extremists (if they are at all). They don't force it on me and they seem to have lived their lives within society, going to the football, having normal jobs, having families etc. One person who knew one of the suspects said 'I knew this guy, Waseem. I don't know if he did what he is accused of - and if he did them they should throw away the key. But my point is he was an ordinary taxi driver, an ordinary bloke who used to drink too much. It's like anybody can be a terrorist'

How can we stop young men like this? Well we have to take away their anger and injustice. And that Born, was created, when the USA (and others) decide they will dictate the future and the means that other countries will live. When they impose sanctions that cripples a nation, when the back Israel and allow it to commit War Crimes against others, When they allow Israel to occupy land that isn't theirs. Allah Ditta, 19, a muslim from High Wycombe where some of the arrested live said ' You know what's behind this don't you? It's British foreign policy. I know people don't like to hear it, but it's true. When you put young guys in front of images that shows the result of what goes on in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon some of them will flip. It's not the right conclusion but it's idiotic to pretend that it won't be reached by some'

I don't know what the solution is unfortunately but that doesn't mean i agree that we should carry on as we are. Maybe we should stop the killing and survey the wreckage. Maybe we should engage these people in talks and diplomacy rather than stating we have launched a war on terror on them. By saying you are at war with them means they have to take up arms and fight back. And you are also wrong to say if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. The problem is Born you have swallowed your US citizenship as much as some redneck hillbilly WASP. You are being so patronising going on about 'The American Dream' making everyone's life better and those who don't conform are backwards. This is exactly the reason you will never be able to see this situation in a non biased way.

 

[Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel]

Whatever, I appreciate your response, I really do.

I know you think I'm arrogant and I think "the american dream" is a lifestyle best earned for the most civilized people and should be something the entire world should strive for, and I didn't really mean to make it sound like that.

When I say westernized... or americanized.... I'm more or less saying "civilized" or "industrialized" or "modernized"......... the British people are now living what I would call "the american dream" because they have a stable government, good quality of living, the opportunity to succeed, freedom of religion, freedome of speech, etc, etc.... a lot of countries are evolving in a more industrialized, modern way of life..... and lets face it, in this new way of life, the power of GOD is diminished because we feel we can do anything God can do with our all powerful governments, technological advances and medical breakthroughs. I think this is a downside unfortunately of a country that becomes civilized, moderized, westernized, americanized, industrialized, call it what you will.

That one boy that had the sister that was a lingerie model is the perfect example. He sees her becoming modernized, and shedding her religous obligations and it infuriates him. He sees his culture falling apart little by little as his people are forced to become modernized and embrace western ideals, and he doesn't like it and therefor wants to blow up everything the West stands for.

There is the Western or Modern way of life, and there is the Islamic way of life, and they are so different that one can not exist with the other. You have female arabic singers now that are on TV performing in a more provocative manner showing more and more skin because it increases their popularity (think Madonna). You have scores of people trying to learn English so they can participate in the worldwide economy, and of course you have people who put other things ahead of their religious obligations.

I really don't think this has much to do with sanctions, foreign policy, etc like you stated, except for the fact where the US/UK support Israel. 

I know you don't think Iraq is better off now but I think they are. Its' only been a few years, they're going through so much change and that's normal. I've never heard of a country that has been in a perpetual civil war that lasted hundreds of years. Sooner or later it will settle. The people will be divided of course intellectually but that's not a bad thing, in fact that is very good. Because once you have a stable governent in place, and have a stable army and law enforcement in place that's when all the good stuff starts, especially with people so divided like Iraq. They don't all want to live like Shiites, or all like Sunni's... or all like Chaldo-Assyrians, you get my point. They'll make laws and evolve their society to be all inclusive... maybe it will be mostly Muslim ideals at first, but over time it will become more and more "westernized" and tolerant of everyone, and even better they will want better things for their people and this will mean diplomatic ties with other countries and international cooperation. I firmly believe this. And if 5,000 or 100,000 or even 1,000,0000 people have to die fighting for freedom over there, it's a freedom worth fighting for. Freedom of dictatorship, freedom from Islamic totalitarian regime, etc is so critical no price can be put on it... not in absolute dollars or lives lost fighting for it. I really hope it doesn't take a million lost souls, and I hope the US and Britian never walk way from Iraq and help these people as much as they can. Because a stable democracy in the heart of the Middle East, and with a strong democratic Lebanon coupled with an increasingly modernized Dubai and Saudi region, will mean very good things for the Middle East.

 

[Whatever]

Born. You're making incorrect assumptions.

The suspect with a supermodel sister IS NOT orginally muslim. He is white and converted to Muslim. His sister being a model has had absolutely nothing to do with it other than to show that these suspects come from all walks of life.

Watch this and tell me what you think? It's George Galloway on Sky speaking the truth about Rupert Murdoch's biased media. He's an MP in England. You might have seen him taking on th US Senate and ripping them apart.

I just wish you wouldn't swallow what your President tells you all the time. He's as extreme as the terrorists he proclaims to be eradicating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6axkIKGXPo

 

[Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel]

i didn't realize israel still occupied parts of lebanon, if that's true that should not be the case. and as for those soldiers being ready to attack, they've only attacked hezbollah in a means to capture and disrupt the missle attacks which never stopped. their desire to live in peace is genuine, hezbollah is the trouble maker here.

you can call israel a terrorist, you an call palestine's hamas or hezbollah a terrorist, it really doesn't matter. what i want to focus on is the extremists, because i think extremists DO NOT respresent the will of the people, so you can call israel an extremist state and america or britian, but i think you would be mistaken.

let me further clarify for you....... the fact is hezzbollah is not a democratically ellected government of lebanon. they are a proxy of syria and iran to further the shiite movement and radical islam in general... so let's be very clear, they DO NOT do the will of the lebanese people. Israel, the United States and Britian, etc elected their leaders who then fullfil the people's agenda in one way or another. Hezbollah does not follow rules of engagement to minimize civilian casualties, they are accountable to no one and do as they wish when they wish, and they are not politically controlled by anyone except by proxy through syria and iran. The destruction of Israel and the West has been the goal of Hezbollah and Iran and radical Shiite clerics for a very long time and it still is. You can not negotiate with this. Iran and Syria know this very well which is why they call on Hezbollah to do their dirty work so they can politically wash their hands of it when it suits them.

The Israeli army is accountable to the Israeli government. The government need only to give the word and fighting is stopped 100% instantly. The political agenda of the Israeli government matters not to their military, they follow orders and report to leaders of their country. Hezbollah does whatever they want whenever they want, in spite of Lebanon's government and pushes THEIR OWN agenda (the shiite islamic radical movement) onto the people of lebanon.

The Israeli agenda is only to live in peace. The Radical Shiite Islamic agenda (of Syria and Iran through Hezbollah) is to seek the destruction of Israel and the West, destablize any form of democracy in the Middle East.

So who is the terrorist now? The Israeli forces who follow orders, adhere to their leaders wishes and only want peace? Or Hezbollah that holds a minority role in the Lebanese government and has hi-jacked a nation who kicked out Syria (a Shiite government) to propogate the Shiite agenda and not that of the Lebanese people and do so without regards to loss of civilian life both on Israel's side and that of their own people by using them as human shields?

 

[Whatever]

There really is not much point posting any more Born because you will always believe your own opinion as you're headstrong, naive and you think far too simplistically. I will post one final post, I know i won't change your mind but i hope it may educate others who perhaps are slightly more open minded, rational and not as taken by media propoganda that some people have. As Chomsky said 'Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media' and the public who believe every word.

I will call Israel a terrorist state. I will accuse them of war crimes. I will highlight the fact they ignore UN resolution after UN resolution. Why? Cos it's all true.

The inherent bias of the media is obvious to anyone capable of basic analysis. there are two sides to the conflict: israel (plus backers) and hezbollah (plus backers). Each side has its own viewpoint and its own narrative, explaining events and justifying actions. both viewpoints are controversial - i.e. they can and should be questioned, not simply accepted.

The mainstream media (and it really is irrelevant whether it is the bbc, sky, itv, cnn or whatever else), however, consistently take the israeli viewpoint as the objective view. The assumption in the media is that Israel's claims are true: that the Israeli military and political leadership desires peace; that its wars are defensive; that israel's enemies simply feel an irrational hatred towards the jewish state and have no possible legitimate political grievances.

You will have to look long and hard before you find a journalist in a mainstream media organisation suggesting than israel's goal is anything other than self-defence. the closest thing is Robert Fisk in the UK, and he remains the exception which proves the rule.

Criticism of Israel, like criticism of the US in general, is limited to bad eggs: soldiers who go too far, unrepresentative elements; at best we get noble intentions gone awry. try to find a bbc report which hints at israeli aggression or hatred of arabs. you can't: it's unspeakable in our media - despite comments such as:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff

" are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset

?One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
? Rabbi Yaacov Perrin

The same hateful rhetoric is present on the arab side - in the Iranian president's recent speeches, for example. however, the arabs' repugnant rhetoric is repeated and emphasised; Israel's is not.

I mean, last year we even had an orgy of 'Sharon: man of peace'. He is an out and out war criminal, found guilty by his own general staff. a man too extreme even for the Israeli military. And the party he founded is - God save us - a moderate centre party simply because there is an even more extreme bunch of monsters loyal to Netanyahu.

You also seem determined to forget history and forget that Hezbollah was created as a resistance to the Israel invastion. Putting history aside is a bizarre thing to do. To suggest an arbitrary cut off point in a conflict which has been ongoing for over half a century makes it factually incorrect. 

In such a conflict, neither side accepts that it is the instigator: Israel's attack is in response to Hezbollah's kidnapping; Hezbollah's kidnapping is in response to Israel's seizure of its fighters etc etc. the only reason to 'put history aside' is to create an entirely fictitious sense of when the whole thing started. Hezbollah was formed to fight an illegal occupation; in Hezbollah's eyes (rightly or wrongly) the occupation has not ended.

There are still approximately 4 million palestinian refugees who are denied the right of return; there are undemocratic regimes whose stated goal is to 'wipe the state of israel from the map'. you cannot put history to one side and assign blame on the basis of what has happened in the last couple of weeks.

as Howard Zinn says, if you don't know history, it's like you were born yesterday.

Anyway Born. I shall end my post on another quote which perhaps, after all these posts may explain how i feel about this whole situation. Its from Chomsky again:
Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it.

And Born - Please google Shebaa Farms to find out why Hezbollah continue their attacks on Israel - an illegal occupying force.

 

[Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel]

I understand everything you just wrote, I really do. And I disagree with none of it (except that last line).

Both sides obviously "hate" the other but there is a big difference:

Israel targets militants and their weaponry or infrastructure and at times hits civilians. When that happens their governement publically apologize, their people cry foul and genuinely mourn the loss of life of innocent people.

Hezbollah, Hamas, etc targets anyone that is Israeli, and civilian or not, they celebrate their death.

There has been violence in that region for a very long time. Obviously resentment and hatred runs deep on both sides, but I think TOLERANCE is one thing the Israelis embrace and the Shiite radicals reject, especially in there here and now. I think the Israeli's desire for peace is genuine. Islamic radicals only want peace when it is convenient for them as a means to arm themselves and live to fight for another day.  And if you can prove otherwise I am very interested to hear why.

 

[Whatever]

I understand everything you just wrote, I really do. And I disagree with none of it (except that last line).

Both sides obviously "hate" the other but there is a big difference:

Israel targets militants and their weaponry or infrastructure and at times hits civilians. When that happens their governement publically apologize, their people cry foul and genuinely mourn the loss of life of innocent people.

Hezbollah, Hamas, etc targets anyone that is Israeli, and civilian or not, they celebrate their death.

There has been violence in that region for a very long time. Obviously resentment and hatred runs deep on both sides, but I think TOLERANCE is one thing the Israelis embrace and the Shiite radicals reject, especially in there here and now. I think the Israeli's desire for peace is genuine. Islamic radicals only want peace when it is convenient for them as a means to arm themselves and live to fight for another day.  And if you can prove otherwise I am very interested to hear why.

Please tell me that you aren't being serious. Israel has been killing indiscrimantly at a rate of 20:1 - 20 Lebs for every Israeli life PLUS if you look at it the majority of Lebanese life has been civilian and the majority of Israeli deaths have been military. You can't just make statements that are wrong. Just because they fit your version of what you believe is happening doesn't make them factually correct.

The Israeli's are far from tolerant. You said you read my post and agreed with it. So you will agree it's media bias that always puts Israels goals as the objective ones; peaceful nation; defending themselves when it is incorrect. They did and still do occupy Lebanon. They have no right to do so. Hezbollah's aims are to rid Lebanon of Israeli occuption.

And following all these deaths what has the aggressive Israeli state achieved? Nothing.

Two main objectives of Israel failed :-

a) get back their two soldiers
b) destroy Hezbollah

Neither has happened. No sign of the soldiers and Hezbollah have come out stronger than ever, with the Lebanese public behind. Even Fox News is acknowledging this

Israel only managed to destroy the south of lebanon and looking at the pictures on the news it looks like they lost the plot

Israel, one of the most advanced armies in the world failed to beat Hezbollah in a month of fighting. Even Netanyahu admitted it today and you know it's bad when he admits it. The ceasefire has done the Israelis a favour as they were getting nowhere fast. Apart from growing resentment from the world.

Sad thing is this will all happen again. Cyclical nature of violence.

 

[RadRides]

One note ladies and gents on the Israeli factor:

The movie Munich is a good tell tale sign of how "tolerant" the Mossad and the Israeli government was back then and now. 

A big big objective of radical Islam (which is been around for centuries) is to destroy Israel, occupy Jerusalem, and rid the world of westernized society, i.e. U.S. and U.K. 

 

[Whatever]

One note ladies and gents on the Israeli factor:

The movie Munich is a good tell tale sign of how "tolerant" the Mossad and the Israeli government was back then and now. 

A big big objective of radical Islam (which is been around for centuries) is to destroy Israel, occupy Jerusalem, and rid the world of westernized society, i.e. U.S. and U.K. 

It has never been an objective of Hezbollah. Their objective is to rid Lebanon of foreign occupiers.

I haven't seen Munich so i don't understand your point but Israel was founded on terrorism and continues to participate in state sponsored terrorism.

No offence but i'll continue to argue with fact and others can continue to argue with rhetoric and overblown, overstated myths and drama.

 

[Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel]

What the media reports to me, who they say won this fight, etc, etc... is all irellevant.

At the end of the day....

You have one civilized country that wants to live in peace and is forced to defend itself at times.

You have another "movement" of radical Islam that wants the unconditional destruction of these people.


You see it as Hezbollah's main objective is to get Israel out of Lebanon and that Israel started everything in the 50's or the 80's or whatever. I see it as a problem much bigger then that, where radical Islam has NEVER tolerated the christians or the jews. And that can be seen historically as well where how Turkey, Syria, Iraq, etc once had large Christian and Jewish populations and they were slaughtered one by one and forced to except Islam.



When Israel fights you see a bunch of people dressed up Israeli uniforms in Israeli military vehicles that has an Israeli flag on it. They hide behind no one, do not use innocent people caught in the middle as human shield and are 100% accountable to their leaders who are politically accountable to the rest of the world.

Hezbollah on the other hand does not value the life of innocent civilians. They do not dress in uninform, they hide amoung civilians, place missled on rooftops of CHRISTIANS or other lebanese civlilans in which they do not value their life, and store their weapons in mosques, schools, or places of mass civilians. Hezbollah is not accountable to anyone, and will do as they wish, whenever they wish with no political reprocussions.

Do you dispute any of that?

Clearly, if Israel wanted Hezbollah destroyed they only need to drop one bomb and they would be domolished. Clearly if Israel wanted their 2 soldiers back they only need to threaten the mass murder of millions of people.

But they do not operate on the same level that Hezbollah and Hamas do in which human life is not respected.

The root cause of all the turmoil in the middle east is NOT Israel's heavy-handed approach of self-defense which goes back 30,50 90 years or so... the root caused is by radical Islam and it's desire to conquer Jerusalem, and to force Islam on the world.

 

[Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel]

It has never been an objective of Hezbollah. Their objective is to rid Lebanon of foreign occupiers.

You're wrong. Their objective is to force Shiite Islamic ideals on Lebanon through Iran and Syria which before Israel long controlled Lebanon.  Syria was forced to withdraw, there was relative peace between Lebanon and Israel, and Hezbollah's objective became propogating the Shiite Radical Movement that Syria could no longer pursue.

 

[RadRides]

Whatever, I basically agreed with you on the Israel/terrorist idea. 

Hezbollah was never created as an auxiliary to the Lebanese defense forces, no matter how limited they were.  Hezbollah, just like Hamas, Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade, Al Qaeda, etc were created to combat Israel and the west.  They are "political" groups aimed at terrorizing non Islamic states for their own selfish, horrifying ideals.