• Our popular and beloved forums are finally back, after being down since April 2018 due to hosting and server issues. We have now switched to a better platform, while maintenaing all data as it was before (contents and user names) . Thank you for your patience and loyalty. If you have any questions, need to report an error, or are having trouble logging in, please email us at: assyrianvoice@rogers.com

A List of good arguments against Islam

mrzurnaci

Active member
Brakathor2 days ago (edited)
Well then... My dad is from North Africa, and I ended up becoming VERY involved with the Muslim community where I grew up. I've even been to a Muslim wedding. I can absolutely confirm that Muslims are extremely friendly and generous people, are VERY socially conservative; most are deeply religious theocrats, and a few of them tend to severely look down on people who don't fall into their favored social parameters, such as homosexuals, as well as being very sympathetic to terrorist acts like 9/11.

If this video proves one thing, it proves that average Muslims so don't get it. According to an Al Jazeera poll, 82% of their viewers support ISIS. The Muslim at the end of this video, seriously in his mind seems to believe that the need to screen for that sort of thing is on par with a need to screen white Christian groups. Also, like the guy in this video, Muslims REALLY do expect you to follow their religion as they do, and pray as they pray.

If you're an atheist, it's simply not possible to be involved in a Muslim community unless you either pray alongside them, or pretend to believe in a lot of the things they believe in. In other words, if you say "God doesn't exist" the exact same amount of times that they say "I trust in God," you'll find that they're not such open people after all, and all that warmth will gradually disappear, and you will be quickly shut out, whether you yourself are the same race as them or not.?


minnie lee2 days ago (edited)
Excellent point. Having had a muslim grandfather from a 90% muslim region in Asia, having lived with muslims from Algeria, Middle East, and Pakistan, and having been in a relationship with a muslim, what you said rang true. Muslims are very nice and generous. They're also theocratic, socially conservative, and have a strong sense of religious superiority.

It's this sense of religious superiority that makes it difficult for a non-muslim to be part of the muslim community. Because no matter how nice and generous they are to you, should the muslim(s) be in a position of power, after a while they will expect you to conform to their islamic beliefs one way or another.

I experienced this on a micro level. My muslim roommates did not allow men into the house other than family members. My muslim boyfriend kept increasing the restrictions he placed on me. First, no pork then some months after, no shorts, then some months later, no short sleeve, etc. They'd also tell me how much they hate gays and how hindus in the middle east were their "slaves."

On a macro level I see this in Europe, where once the muslim community becomes a significant minority, they start demanding for more and more islamic accommodation. And in the country where my grandpa is from, which is 5% muslim in total (but 90% muslim in some parts), the muslim community over there demanded their own autonomous state.

Muslims generally also expect you to agree that their prophet mohammad
was a great guy, even though the Sahih Hadith describe him doing many
morally reprehensible things. And if you don't agree, the response is often met with name-calling and belligerence.

Point is, that people forget is that islam means SUBMISSION. Or as a muslim I knew put it, "peace via submission to the will of allah and his prophet." Submission by definition means, "accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person." The will of allah is that EVERYONE, muslim and nonmuslim, submit to islamic law. Muslims accept submission while non-muslims often yield to it.  (Note that submission does not require conversion)

That's why the warmth and hospitality of the muslim community often fades to insults, violence and/or accusations of "racism" and "islamophobia" once they realize you won't go along with their religious culture...because you won't submit.?
 

Cascade

New member
mrzurnaci said:
It was answer to an argumentative question and you just swooped in saying the bible is contradicting itself which adds completely nothing to the overall debate, especially when you argue with a brainwashed Islamist like "Dr." Zakir Naik...
Again, you can't make a thread critiquing the bible or Christianity here. The moderator has implied something like this. I find that understandable, but I think that threads criticizing the bible would be more relevant here, because virtually all Assyrians are Christian. As such, these threads would help them "question" the bible. A thread about the Quran in a predominantly Christian forum wouldn't really help, because most of us already detest Islam and we would be anything BUT Muslim. A thread like this is perfect for those western regressive liberals in those international forums, but for the people here? We know how abhorrent and perverted the Quran is, so it's not really helping.

Maybe I should've said this earlier before making the list of the biblical contradictions. So my point would've been understood.

What you're doing is called a Red Herring -> A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.
Sure, but the divinity of Christ is not an "important issue" to yourself and I (non-believers).

In an argument about the Divinity of Jesus, as put forth by an Islamist asking where Jesus said he was god or where Jesus said to worship him, I answered his argument with the verses.
I don't care if that argument came from a serial rapist, I just wouldn't t lie to myself and say "I GOTTA REFUTE IT". The bible is not clear on whether Jesus wanted us to worship him, or not. And it's known to contradict itself. That's why so many people, including you and I, have left the religion. You can by all means refute the crap he says about Islam being true and how gods must exist, but what he says about Jesus, Moses, Paul, etc, should be ignored by non-Christians.

his argument put forth is decent but that's where my post refutes it because he asked for proof/source and I put proof/source since Christians are the ones making the claim that Jesus is God.
Again, the bible contradicts itself. Jesus says "I and the father are one" and in the same breath he's like "The Father is greater than I." Who cares if a Muslim holds this idea? It's not like it's only a Muslim that does.

I didn't present any argument so what the hell are you talking about that I don't have a decent argument?
You listed the verses implying that Jesus is a deity, when there are other verses contradicting this idea. As a skeptic, you should have a broader perspective of things.

Secondly, I find it very strange that you're siding with an Islamist when the whole point of this thread is to refute Islam and not Christianity...
That's a logical fallacy there (it has a name, not bothered to find it). I'm not siding with him because he's an Islamist, but because what he says makes a point and it's shared by billions of people (even some Christians themselves - Nontrinitarianism). He has NOTHING on that idea and it's not like he owns it. He's only using the whole "Jesus is not a deity" thing to fuel his Islamic agenda. Doesn't mean that we're doing that.

 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Neon said:
too much stuff
The point of this thread is to provide retorts for arguments Muslims make, end of story; stop going off topic. I'm locking this thread to prevent anymore
 

Cascade

New member
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas from Sahih Bukhari 8:82:820: The Prophet cursed effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude (manners) of men. He also said, "Turn them out of your houses." He turned out such-and-such person out, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such person.

Qur'an 4:16: If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
 
Neon said:
Qur'an 4:16: If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
"If they repent', Christianity doesn't give you that option. It's so contradictory when Islam is more against homosexuality then Christianity.. my gawd, the human curse of the Abrahamic faiths.
 

Cascade

New member
Assyrian Nationalist said:
"If they repent', Christianity doesn't give you that option. It's so contradictory when Islam is more against homosexuality then Christianity.. my gawd, the human curse of the Abrahamic faiths.
You mean Judaism (or  Judaeo-Christianity). If you're speaking of the Torah in the Old Testament. To be fair, Jesus (and the NT) did say that all sins can be forgiven.

And yes, quite surprisingly, the Quran isn't as harsh to homosexuals as the Torah is. It doesn't explicitly tell us to put gays to death. However, in the Hadiths it is a different story.
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
This section is reserved for Muhammad himself. - SOURCES IN BRACKETS

Muhammad, full name Muhammad Ibn Abdullah is the founder of Islam.

Beginnings
Born to ?Abdu?llah ibn ?Abdu?l-Muttalib in what was said to be "the year of the Elephant". His family belonged to the Hashim, a branch of the Quraysh tribe. Unwanted by his mother[Katib al Waquidi p. 20] and fully orphaned at the age of six, he was brought up by his uncle Abu Talib. Muhammad initially adopted the occupation of a shepherd, later becoming a merchant, robber, baron and eventually warlord. Many claim that in his youth, Muhammad was called by the nickname Al-Amin (??????), meaning "faithful, trustworthy" and was sought out as an impartial arbitrator.[Esposito(1998), p.6]

However, historian Alford Welch holds that "Al-Amin" was a common Arab name and further suggest that al-Amin might have been Muhammad's given name, a masculine form [Alford Welch - cf. "Muhammad","Encyclopedia of Islam"] from the same root as his mother's name, ?mina (?????). Physically, he was described as a "white man",[Sahih Bukhari 2:17:122] and in later years as a "fat dwarf".[Abu Dawud 40:4731] In 595 AD, aged twenty-five, Muhammad married his employer Khadijah. She was a wealthy women aged forty, who had three children from two previous marriages. She would eventually bear him two sons (both died in childhood) and four daughters. Khadijah's father Khuwaylid bin Asad was opposed to the idea of his affluent daughter marrying such an "insignificant youth," so the couple used deception. Plying her father with alcohol until he lost his senses, the marriage ceremony went ahead as planned.[LIFE OF MAHOMET. Volume II. Chapter 2,WIlliam Muir, [Smith, Elder, & Co., London, 1861], pg. 24]


The Revelations
Leaving his wife and children behind during the month of Ramadan, the now wealthy Muhammad would often fall back to a cave located at the summit of Mount Hira, just outside Mecca in the Arabian Hijaz, where he fasted and prayed. According to Islamic belief, when he was about forty years old (610 AD) he was visited by the Angel Gabriel (????? Jibreel) and commanded to recite verses sent by Allah. These verses would later become what is believed to be the first part of Sura 96. This experience frightened him, and originally thinking he was possessed by a demon, he became suicidal.

According to Sahih Bukhari 9:87:111:
...But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet (Mohammad) became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's Apostle in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before.
After this first 'revelation' no new ones came for a time, but then after a long period they started up again and continued at a steady rate till his death. The collection of these verses is known as the Qur'an.

If the Qur'an is read in chronological order, you will notice over time the revelations changed style from a poetic to a more straight forward and aggressive type in the later years. The messages of the later revelations also changed and abrogated the earlier ones. Typically from the now famous 'no compulsion verse' to the 'verse of the sword'. These alterations followed Muhammad's place in society. What are known as the "early revelation" were recorded in Mecca while Muhammad was weak and had very few followers willing to die for him. The later "Medinan verses" were revealed once Muhammad had gained more followers and became the head of the first Islamic state in Medina.

These revelations continued until his death twenty-three years later. These supposedly divine revelations would sometimes come to him while dressed in Aisha's clothes.[Sahih Bukhari 2442]

How they came to him is described in hadiths such as Sahih Bukhari 1:1:2:
Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ' off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).
Preaching in Makka
He began preaching as a prophet in Mecca, warning of a day of judgement when all humans who have rejected his claims of prophethood would burn for eternity in Hell (???? Jahannam).[Encyclopedia of World History (1998), p. 452] Even during the early days of his self-proclaimed prophethood he was often accused by the Meccans of plagiarising the "ancients fictitious tales."["Such things have been promised to us and to our fathers before! they are nothing but tales of the ancients!" - Qur'an 23:83] Indeed, as Muhammad was an illiterate man who had come into contact with followers of the Abrahamic faiths before his proclamation of prophethood (e.g. Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail),[Sahih Bukhari 7:67:407] this would explain his imperfect borrowings from the stories he had heard. The elites in Mecca were left unimpressed by what was preached, and this infuriated him.

Eventually leading Muhammad to deliver verses that condemned idol worship and the Meccan forefathers who engaged in polytheism.[F. E. Peters (1994), p.169] Thus began the opposition of Muhammad in Mecca. While some claim the Meccans persecuted Muslims, there is little evidence that would support this. There had been trouble, most of which were in reaction to Muhammad's antagonism towards the 'idolaters'. As Muhammad's followers remained few in numbers, in an attempt to entice the polytheists into converting to Islam he revealed the now infamous "Satanic Verses". Most likely upon realising how this would impact his status (no longer being the lone intercessor between his followers and Allah), he quickly replaced his previous revelation with the following assault on the Meccan deities:

Qur'an 53:19-23
Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat? What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female? Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair! These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!
Muhammad was also criticized for claiming he rode the Buraq (a mythical flying horse-like creature) on an alleged and rather fanciful "Night Journey" to the "nearest heaven" and then back to Mecca in one night.[Sahih Bukhari 5:58:227] An event which is now celebrated by Muslims every year.[A Night Journey through Jerusalem - Khadija Bradlow - Times Online, August 18, 2007]

Muhammad in Medina (The City)
His emigration
After the death of his uncle Abu Talib, who, although not becoming a Muslim, had protected Muhammad throughout, in 622, Muhammad left Mecca in a journey known to Muslims as the Hijra (??????? Migration).[Encyclopedia of World History (1998), p. 452] He, along with his followers, settled in Medina (then known as Yathrib) a large agricultural oasis, where he was the leader of the first Islamic theocracy. He ordered his followers not to contact their relatives who were left behind in Mecca. By severing links between his followers and their non-Muslim relatives, Muhammad furthered his hold on them. This Hijra (traditionally translated into English as "flight") marks the beginning of the (rather crude) Islamic lunar calendar. The Muslim calendar counts dates from the Hijra, which is why Muslim dates have the suffix AH (After Hijra).

Medina was home to a number of Jewish tribes, divided into three major clans: Banu Qainuqa, Banu Qurayza and Banu Nadir, and some minor groups.[The Cambridge History of Islam (1977), p. 39] Among the things Muhammad did was draft a document known as the Constitution of Medina (date debated), "establishing a kind of alliance or federation" among the eight Medinan tribes and Muslim emigrants from Mecca, which specified the rights and duties of all citizens and the relationship of the different communities in Medina.[The Cambridge History of Islam (1977), p. 39]

War with the Makkans
In March of 624, Muhammad led some three hundred Jihadists in a raid on a Meccan merchant caravan. The Meccans successfully defended the caravan, but then decided to retaliate and marched against Medina. On March 15, 624 near a place called Badr, the Meccans and the Muslims clashed. Though outnumbered more than three times (one thousand to three hundred - majority of Muslim historians put the exact total at 313) in the battle, the Muslims met with success, killing at least seventy Meccans and taking seventy prisoners[Sahih Bukhari 4:52:276] for ransom; only fourteen Muslims died.[Glubb (2002), pp.179-186.] This marked the real beginning of Muslim military battles. Among the prisoners was Al Nadir, a storyteller and poet who had mocked him. He was not allowed to be ransomed by their clans and was executed on Muhammad's orders.[ Jake Neuman - God of Moral Perfection; A Stark Message from God for All Mankind - (2008) Blackwell, p. 211] Muhammad also ordered twenty-four Meccans to be thrown into the well of Badr,[Sahih Muslim 40:6870] and mocked the dead.[Sahih Bukhari 2:23:452]

A further four years of continuous war between Muslim and Meccan forces followed, culminating later in a Muslim victory and the conquest of Mecca. The Muslims subsequently removed and destroyed everything they considered idolatrous from the Ka'aba, while Muhammad recited verses from the Qur'an. The townspeople either accepted Islam or were expelled. In March 632,[Alford Welch, Muhammad, Encyclopedia of Islam] Muhammad led the pilgrimage known as the Hajj (??).

His sexual partners
Following the death of his (at that time) only wife Khadijah, Muhammad felt sexually liberated. He began to practice polygamy and became known as a womanizer.[al Tabari vol.9 p.139] After an initial protest from her father,[Sahih Bukhari 7:62:18] he married Aisha when she was only six years old. She was the daughter of his friend Abu Bakr (who would later emerge as the first leader of the Muslims after Muhammad's death). In Medina, he married Hafsah, daughter of Umar (who would eventually become Abu Bakr's successor). Eventually he would go on to marry (and house independently) a total of fifteen women,[al-Tabari vol.9 p.126-127] and own numerous concubines, including his Coptic slave, Mariyah. According to the famous Sunni scholar Ibn al-Qayyim:
Mohammed had many male and female slaves. He used to buy and sell them, but he purchased more slaves than he sold, especially after God empowered him by His message, as well as after his immigration from Mecca. He once sold one black slave for two. His name was Jacob al-Mudbir. His purchases of slaves were more than he sold. He was used to renting out and hiring many slaves, but he hired more slaves than he rented out.["Zad al-Ma'ad" - part 1, page 160]
His changing attitude towards the Jews
A few years after his migration, Muhammad's attitude towards the Christians and Jews changed. Having encountered rejection from the Jewish scholars in Medina, he became very much an anti-Semite. The Jews were rightly skeptical of the compatibility between the Qur'an and their own scriptures, and while many in Medina converted to Islam, very few were from the large Jewish populations. This was the start of the long history of persecution and subjugation of Jews at the hands of Islam.

After each major battle with the Medinans, Muhammad accused one of the Jewish tribes of treachery (see Qur'an 2:100) and attacked it. After Badr and Uhud, the Banu Qainuqa and Banu Nadir, respectively, were expelled from Medina, and much of their possessions were confiscated by Muhammad.[Tabari, vol. 7, p. 87] After the Battle of the Trench in 627, the Muslims accused the Jews of Banu Qurayza of conspiring with the Meccans, then wiped them out.[Esposito (1998), pp.10-11] The women and young children were taken captive by Muslims to be sold in slave markets,[Haykal, Muhammad Husayn (Author). Al-Faruqi, Ismail Raji (Translator). (2002). The Life of Muhammad. (p. 338). Selangor, Malaysia: Islamic Book Trust][Ibn Ishaq: 693] and the men and boys who had begun to grow pubic hair were beheaded.[Abu Dawud 38:4390] Muslim historian Ibn Ishaq describes the incident:
Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!' This went on until the apostle made an end of them.[ Guillaume, Alfred, The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah. Oxford University Press, 1955. ISBN 0-1963-6033-1; p. 461-464.]
Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464
One of the explanations given by some Arab historians and biographers for Muhammad's appalling treatment of the Jews of Medina is that "the punishment of the Medina Jews, who were invited to convert and refused, perfectly exemplify the Qur'an's tales of what happened to those who rejected the prophets of old."[F.E.Peters(2003), p.77]

The Death of the Muhammad
In the year 632, Muhammad became infirm with severe head pain and weakness. He died on June, 8th, 632 at the age of 62 or 63. Muhammad was poisoned by a Jewish woman, following the conquest of Khaibar, where he took Safiyah as a wife, and ordered the torture and beheading of her husband Kinana, the chief of the Jews at Khaibar. He spent his last day with the young Aisha, who was considered to be his favorite wife. At the time of his death, Ali (who would later become the fourth caliph of Islam) reported that Muhammad's penis was erect.["....Abulfeda mentions the exclamation of Ali, who washed his body after his death, "O prophet, thy penis is erect unto the sky!" (in Vit. Mohammed. p. 140)....." - Edward Gibbon, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", Vol. 9 Footnote 175] He was buried in his house near the Mosque of the Prophet in Medina.
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Neon said:
You mean Judaism (or  Judaeo-Christianity). If you're speaking of the Torah in the Old Testament. To be fair, Jesus (and the NT) did say that all sins can be forgiven.

And yes, the Quran is that harsh to homosexuals as the Torah is. It doesn't tell its followers to put gays to death, surprisingly. However, in the Hadiths it is a different story.
"Homosexuality is one of the most disgusting sins and greatest crimes.... It is a vile perversion that goes against sound nature, and is one of the most corrupting and hideous sins.... The punishment for homosexuality is death. Both the active and passive participants are to be killed whether or not they have previously had sexual intercourse in the context of a legal marriage.... Some of the companions of the Prophet stated that [the perpetrator] is to be burned with fire. It has also been said that he should be stoned, or thrown from a high place."
Saudi Ministry of Education Textbooks for Islamic Studies: 2007-2008 Academic Year
Center for Religious Freedom of Hudson Institute

the original link to the PDF is down unfortunately.

According to the Iranian gay and lesbian rights group Homan, the Iranian government alone has put to death an estimated 4,000 homosexuals since the Islamic revolution of 1979.[H. Tavakoli - The New Dark Ages - The Iranian,September 20, 1999]

Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Abu Dawud 38:4447


However, there is a divergence of opinions on the methodology to be used in executing the punishment. While some scholars such as Abu bakr [the first Rightly-Guided Caliph] and Ali [Muhammad's son-in-law and the fourth Rightly-Guided Caliph ] were of the view that such a person should be beheaded and set on fire thereafter, Umar [the second Rightly-Guided Caliph] and Uthman [the third Rightly-Guided Caliph] thought the wall should be fell on him. To Ibn Abbas [Muhammad's cousin], he should be taken to the tallest building in the town, thrown upside down while some men stand on the ground waiting to meet him with stone in replication of the destruction done to the people of Lut by Allah.
Homosexuality: The Islamic viewpoint (2)
Imam Sirajudeen Bakrin, Nigerian Tribune, December 30, 2011

"Some scholars hold the opinion that the homosexual should be thrown from a high building as a punishment for his crime, but other scholars maintain that he should be imprisoned until death."
"Death Fall as Punishment for Homosexuality" (archived from the original)
IslamOnline, July 22, 2002.
archive link -> http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fweb%2F20091103195314%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.islamonline.net%2Fservlet%2FSatellite%3Fpagename%3DIslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaE%26cid%3D1119503545556&date=2014-10-28
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
List of UN nations that support (Blue) or oppose (Red) LGBT rights.


source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:LGBT_rights_at_the_UN.svg
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Christians, kill them 9: 5
Jews, kill them 9: 5
Unbelievers, kill them 9: 5
Kill, Christians 9: 29
Kill, Jews 9: 29
Kill, unbelievers 9: 29
Kill, unbelievers 9: 36
Kill, unbelievers 25: 52
Killing, authorized by Allah 22: 39
Killing, authorized by Allah 47: 20
Killing, authorized by Allah 61: 4
Killing, before taking captives 8: 67
Killing, cutting throats 47: 4
Killing, flight from 33: 16
Killing, in the way of Allah 4: 94
Killing, Jews 33: 26
Killing, Moslem by Moslem 4: 92
Killing, Moslem by Moslem 4: 93
Killing, throat cutting 8: 12
Killing, until all are Moslem 8: 39
Killing, until all are Moslem 9: 36
Killing, until all are Moslem 9: 73
Killing, until all are Moslem 9: 123
Killing, until all are Moslem 33: 61
Warfare, against Infidels 3: 151
Warfare, kill Infidels 4: 89
Warfare, kill Infidels 4: 91
Warfare, ordained for Moslems 2: 216
Warfare, prescribed for Moslems 2: 178
Warfare, retaliation by Moslems 2: 179
Warfare, way of Allah 4: 84

____________________
MOSLEMS CAN LIE
koran 2:225 says moslems can lie to their wives.
koran 9:3 says moslems can lie
40:28.?
 
'Prophet' Muhammad:
(1) let young boys watch him clean his private parts (Bukhari 1:4:152)
(2) sucked the tongue of a boy (Musnad Ahmad 16245)?
(3) dressed up in little girl's clothes and women's clothes (Bukhari 2442)
(4) slept with or had sex with a dead female body in a coffin or grave (Kanz al Ummal 34424)
(5) was a pedophile (Bukhari: 5:58:234,236; 7:62:64,65,88)
(6) said to consume house flies (Bukhari: Vol. 4, Bk. 54, No. 537)
(7) commanded to drink camel urine (Bukhari: Vol. 8, Bk. 82, No. 79)
(8) admitted to having a devil (Muslim: Ch.14, Bk. 39, No. 6759)
(9) confessed to being demon possessed (Ishaq: 106)
(10) told false revelations (Tabari VI: 107, 110; Ishaq: 166)
(11) encouraged adherents to lie and break oaths (Ishaq:365; Tabari VII: 94; cf. Ishaq: 519; Bukhari: Vol. 7, Bk. 67, No. 427)
(12) has sex with animals (Abu Dawud 38:4450)
 

Cascade

New member
Assyrian Nationalist said:
(3) dressed up in little girl's clothes and women's clothes (Bukhari 2442)
To be honest, that's a rather "liberal" thing for him to do. If he spent more time being a drag queen and making pride parades, instead of raping little girls and beheading innocent people, maybe then I'd consider him a "prophet".
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
new argument!

in Islam, Shirk is considered one of the greatest sins that a person can commit. Islam dictates that Shirk is never forgiven by Allah.

Shirk is defined as ascribing or the establishing "partners" placed beside Allah.

Muslims do not exactly realize this but they are committing technical Shirk by believing in Angels.

How is this Shirk? Angels in Islam are exactly identical to angels in Christianity and Judaism, meaning angels have immortality and have powers beyond that of humans.

By this definition, angels can be considered lesser gods. Since Muslims associate angels with Allah, they are thus committing an unforgivable sin.

Muslims do not generally think of angels as gods but angels definitely fit the definition of a god (i.e. being immortal and having powers beyond the power of humans)

thus, in conclusion, by believing in angels, Muslims are committing an unforgivable sin. From this, every Muslim that has ever believed in angels is in the fires of Hell.
 
M

member 326969 Global

Guest
mrzurnaci said:
new argument!

in Islam, Shirk is considered one of the greatest sins that a person can commit. Islam dictates that Shirk is never forgiven by Allah.

Shirk is defined as ascribing or the establishing "partners" placed beside Allah.

Muslims do not exactly realize this but they are committing technical Shirk by believing in Angels.

How is this Shirk? Angels in Islam are exactly identical to angels in Christianity and Judaism, meaning angels have immortality and have powers beyond that of humans.

By this definition, angels can be considered lesser gods. Since Muslims associate angels with Allah, they are thus committing an unforgivable sin.

Muslims do not generally think of angels as gods but angels definitely fit the definition of a god (i.e. being immortal and having powers beyond the power of humans)

thus, in conclusion, by believing in angels, Muslims are committing an unforgivable sin. From this, every Muslim that has ever believed in angels is in the fires of Hell.
I think this argument is clearly flawed. Just because X has an attribute of Y does not necessitate that X=Y. For example of this error in practice, apples exist and tables exist therefore, apples are at least some lesser form of tables.

Immortality is considered an attribute of God in all of the Abrahamic religions but it isn't necessarily an attribute that only God can have. In those religions, God can create beings that do not die without creating other gods. Eternal existence or, in this case, eternal preexistence would be the attribute in question since it is strictly reserved for God in all mainstream Abrahamic religions, and, as you would expect, no angels have this attribute in any of those religions.

Also, having supernatural powers does not necessitate deity. In the aforementioned religions, prophets and angels posses divine powers but they are not taken to be gods thereby. Most would simply state that these powers are authorised or endowed by God and even if that interpretation isn't held, it would be perfectly valid for someone to argue that they are not objects of worship and thus not deemed gods according to their religious model.

Islamic literature, like most religious literature, is rife with errors and contradictions but I'm afraid this is not from among them.
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Sharukinu said:
I think this argument is clearly flawed. Just because X has an attribute of Y does not necessitate that X=Y. For example of this error in practice, apples exist and tables exist therefore, apples are at least some lesser form of tables.

Immortality is considered an attribute of God in all of the Abrahamic religions but it isn't necessarily an attribute that only God can have. In those religions, God can create beings that do not die without creating other gods. Eternal existence or, in this case, eternal preexistence would be the attribute in question since it is strictly reserved for God in all mainstream Abrahamic religions, and, as you would expect, no angels have this attribute in any of those religions.

Also, having supernatural powers does not necessitate deity. In the aforementioned religions, prophets and angels posses divine powers but they are not taken to be gods thereby. Most would simply state that these powers are authorised or endowed by God and even if that interpretation isn't held, it would be perfectly valid for someone to argue that they are not objects of worship and thus not deemed gods according to their religious model.

Islamic literature, like most religious literature, is rife with errors and contradictions but I'm afraid this is not from among them.
it made more sense in my head but I guess you're right, should I delete or leave it?
 
M

member 326969 Global

Guest
mrzurnaci said:
it made more sense in my head but I guess you're right, should I delete or leave it?
For a historical record in the evolution of our ideas, keep it. To not mislead casual scanners or save the time of perusers who want to reference this thread, delete it.

Up to you.
 
Top