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A List of good arguments against Islam

mrzurnaci

Active member
The moon emits light (71:16) [The moon doesn't emit light, it reflects light from the sun]
sperm comes from between the backbone and the ribs (86:6-7) [sperm comes from the testes]
all living things were created in pairs (51:49) [living things were evolved from the population]
salt and fresh water do not mix (25:53) [water + water = water]
bones created before flesh in an embryo (23:14) [bones and flesh are created at the same time in an embryo]
bees eat all fruit (16:68-69) [bees don't eat fruit but extract nectar]
only eight types of cattle exist (39:6) [now we have hundreds of types of cattle thanks to selective breeding]
mountains prevent earthquakes (16:15) [nothing can prevent earthquakes which is done by plate tectonics which mountains have no control over]

For against Sunni Muslims, here are some Hadith ones

source: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/2rxvq1/your_best_rational_arguments_against_islam_with/

PLEASE NOTE: Sahih or ?a??? (Sade Kheth Yodh Kheth in Sureth) means "authentic, verified"
Then there's Hasan, Khasan, or ?asan which means "good" meaning the verse isn't as verified as Sahih but it's considered good enough to use as religious evidence

    The one I have researched most thoroughly. The sun rises and sets at particular places on the [presumably flat] earth. At the westernmost point on earth, the sun sets in a muddy spring. (Quran 18:86, 90, confirmed by Sahih Hadith: Sunan Abu Dawud 3991)

    The Earth is flat [literally: ?It is he who spread out the Earth] (Quran 13:3, 15:19, various other sources)

    God created a man first, then a woman from the man, and all humans descended from them. [Implies no human evolution] (Quran 4:1, 7:189)

    Homosexual acts are condemned as unnatural. {Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?} But these acts are common in many non-human species. (Quran 7:80-81)

    The sun (according to the Quran) orbits the earth.(Quran 13:2)

    Adam was a 90 foot giant. This is historically incorrect and scientifically impossible due to impossible bone density [Square-Cube Law] (hadith: Sahih Bukhari 4:55:543, :Sahih Muslim 40:6809 and Sahih Muslim 32:6325)

    The sun stays under Allah?s throne from sunset till sunrise. (Sahih Bukhari 4:54:421)

    According to Muhammad, the embryo spends 40 days as a drop of sperm, 40 days as a clot, and then 40 days as a piece of flesh. In reality, by day 56 the fetus is essentially a complete, though tiny, human being with all organ systems in place, and all tissues developed. (Sahih Bukhari 4:54:430, See also: Sahih Bukhari 4:55:549, Sahih Bukhari 8:77:593, Sahih Bukhari 9:93:546, and Sahih Muslim 33:6390)

    Gender is not determined until 80 days after conception. It is actually determined AT conception and the sex organs develop around the 6th week (as opposed to the 12th). Sahih Bukhari 8:77:594, See also: Sahih Bukhari 4:55:550, and Sahih Muslim 33:6397

    Child inherits appearance from the parent that discharges first during sex Sahih Bukhari 4:55:546

    Satan pees in your ears if you oversleep (Sahih Bukhari 2:21:245)

    Non-Muslims eat in 7 intestines while Muslims eat in 1. (Sahih Muslim 23:5113

    Noon heat is from hell-fire. (Sahih Bukhari 1:10:513)

    Looking at the sky during prayer causes blindness (Sahih Bukhari 1:12:717). I can personally confirm this is false.

    Fever is caused by the heat of hell (Sahih Bukhari 7:71:619, 1:3262)

    Water from truffles cures eye diseases (Sahih Bukhari 7:71:609)

    Black dogs (in general) are the devil. (Sahih Muslim 4:1032)

    Crowing is caused by seeing angels, braying of donkeys is caused by seeing devils. (Sahih Bukhari 4:54:522)

    Eating 7 dates cures poison (Sahih Bukhari 7:65:356)

    Pharoah used crucifixion as a punishment. Crucifixion is a Roman punishment, unknown in Egypt at the time this story supposedly occurred. (Quran 7:124) There?s more, but I?m only listing these 20 for now.

Moral Issues: 1. [Slavery/Rape] Men are allowed as many slaves as they want, and are entitled to sex from them. (Quran 4:3, 33:50, 70: 29-31)

    [Slavery] Muhammed had a Christian slave [1 of 4] named Mariya Al-Qibtiyya, and had a son with her named Ibrahim. Muhammed received her as a gift. (Can?t find a primary Islamic source outside of biographies written by famous Sheikhs. This is an uncontroversial fact, however.)

    [Injustice/Merciless/Slavery] If someone kills one of your slaves, you kill one of his slaves. Male for male, female for female. This is as if slaves were objects and not people. (Quran 2:178)

    [Misogyny/ scientific error] Menstruation is a disease and you should stay away from women until it?s over and they have ?purified? themselves. (Quran: 2:222)

    [Misogyny] Men are a [literal translation] ?degree above women.? (Quran 2:228)

    [Misogyny] Men have twice the testimony of women (Quran 2:282), and are allowed to strike women after repeated disobedience (Quran 4:34)

    The verses listed above are because women have ?half the intelligence of men? [Literal Arabic: half the brain of men], and most of hell is made of women. (Sahih Bukhari 1:301, 3:826)

    [Arbitrary Restriction] It?s haram to play chess. (Sahih Muslim 28:5612)

    [Merciless] A Jew killed a Muslim by crushing her head between two stones. Muhammed ordered the Jew to be killed the same way. (Sahih Bukhari, 9:23)

    [Misogyny/Suspicious] Only Muhammed?s wives are punished double by Allah for misbehaving, and must always stay in their houses. [As well as various other restrictions that apply ONLY to Muhammed?s wives in other Quran/Hadith] (Quran 33:30-33)

Philosophical Issues (With the idea of god as a whole):

    The problem of evil: ? If an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent god exists, then evil does not. ? There is evil in the world. ? Therefore, an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God does not exist.

    Incompatible properties: Omniscience regarding the future implies it has been determined, which is possible only in a deterministic world. Therefore, we cannot both have free will AND have God know everything.

    MOST IMPORTANT TO THIS CONVERSATION: Occam?s Razor.

Occam?s Razor states that the simplest argument with the fewest assumptions is the most likely to be true. If the argument FOR Islam requires hundreds of twisted and convoluted assumptions about intent/meaning/other explanations to prove it correct, it is much more reasonable to conclude that they are actually false, and that the simplest argument, that Islam is wrong, is true.

Allah created the earth before the stars:
Quran 41:9-12


Contradictions in the Qur'an

Could Allah have a son?

Yes
If Allah had willed to choose a son, He could have chosen what He would of that which He hath created.
Be He Glorified! He is Allah, the One, the Absolute.
Qur'an 39:4

No
Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth; How can He have a son when He has no consort?
He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things
Qur'an 6:101


Does Allah lead people astray?

No
And Allah will not mislead a people after He hath guided them, in order that He may make clear to them what to fear (and avoid)- for Allah hath knowledge of all things.
Qur'an 9:115

Yes
Of them there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, So they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the signs, not they will believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee, they (but) dispute with thee; the Unbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the ancients."
Qur'an 6:25


Is Allah kind and merciful?

Yes
Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Qur'an 1:3

No
Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
Qur'an 4:56


Strength of believers

One Muslim is more powerful than 10 non-Muslims
If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve
Qur'an 8:65

One Muslim can overcome two non-Muslims
So if there be of you a steadfast hundred they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a thousand (steadfast) they shall overcome two thousand by permission of Allah.
Qur'an 8:66


Can Muslims eat non-halal meat?

Yes
This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
Qur'an 5:5

No
So eat of (meats) on which Allah's name hath been pronounced, if ye have faith in His signs.
Qur'an 6:118


Is drinking alcohol okay?

Yes, we will drink Alcohol with Allah for an eternity
Surely the pious will be in bliss ... their thirst will be slaked with pure wine sealed.
Qur'an 83:22

Paradise has rivers of Alcohol
A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah) are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted ... and rivers of wine delicious to the drinkers. .
Qur'an 47:15

Yes
And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise
Qur'an 16:67

Yes, as long as you're not praying
O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.
Qur'an 4:43

Quite bad
O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.
Qur'an 5:90

Huge sin
They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect
Qur'an 2:219

Alcohol is from Satan
O you who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divine arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside that you may succeed
Qur'an 5:90


What does Allah do with apostates?

Punishes them
But if any turn away and reject Allah,- Allah will punish him with a mighty Punishment,
Qur'an 88:23-24

Does not care
There was indeed in them an excellent example for you to follow,- for those whose hope is in Allah and in the Last Day. But if any turn away, truly Allah is Free of all Wants, Worthy of all Praise.
Qur'an 60:6


Is there compulsion in Islam?

No
There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
Qur'an 2:256

No
Unto you your religion and unto me my religion
Qur'an 109:6

Yes
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them
Qur'an 8:12

Yes, unless the disbelievers pay you.
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger [Muhammad], nor acknowledge the religion of truth [Islam], from among the people of the book [Jews and Christians] until they pay the Jezia [special taxes paid by the Jews and
Qur'an 9:29


Will Allah reward the good deeds of non-Muslims?

No
It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell.
Qur'an 9:17

Yes
And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then
Qur'an 99:7


For whom is salvation?

For all pious theists
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Qur'an 5:69

For all pious theists
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Qur'an 2:62

For Muslims only
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
Qur'an 3:85

For Muslims only
Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account..
Qur'an 3:19


Should Muslims have Christians for friends?

Yes
Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
Qur'an 5:82

Yes
We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and we ordained in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy.
Qur'an 57:27

No
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
Qur'an 5:51


Christians and Jews hate or love each other?

Hate each other
The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.
Qur'an 5:64

Love each other
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
Qur'an 5:51


Do Muslims and non-Muslim theists worship the same god?

No
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Qur'an 109:3

Yes
And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
Qur'an 29:46


Will Jews and Christians be saved from hell?

Yes
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Qur'an 2:62

Yes
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Qur'an 5:69

No
Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayah (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.
Qur'an 3:19

No
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
Qur'an 3:85


Abrogation; does Allah change his words?

No
The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.
Qur'an 6:115

No
For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity.
Qur'an 10:64

Yes
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
Qur'an 2:106

Yes
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
Qur'an 16:101


Standing while drinking something

Forbidden
Anas reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) disapproved the drinking of water while standing.
Sahih Muslim 23:5017

Recommended
Ibn Abbas reported: I served. (water of) Zamzam to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he drank it while standing.
Sahih Muslim 23:5023


On the topic of Jesus, Muslims believe that Jesus will come back to fight for Islam instead of Christianity.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah?s Apostle said, ?By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it.? Abu Huraira added ?If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): ? ?And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them.? (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7)
Sahih Bukhari 4:55:657

This is the same Hadith that ISIS commonly quotes!


Then there's all the Qur'anic contradictions against Jesus.
Muslims commonly say and argue that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet.

"... was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, ..." (Qur'an 4:171)
But other verses say completely different and here's some of them.

The Qur'an, while saying that jesus was nothing more than a prophet, completely accepts his virgin birth and here's the proof.

Christ Jesus the son of Mary ... (Qur'an 4:171)

The same verse that denies Jesus also accepts that he was of virgin birth by naming him the son of his mother rather than the son of his father.
Not only this but by giving him the title of Christ, the Qur'an acknowledges more.

the reality was that Jesus was not born from a virgin (don't forget that Mary was a married woman).

Let's look at the whole verse: "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."

The same verse also calls Jesus the "word" of Allah. Didn't Genesis say "In the beginning was the Word" "bresheeth, eethawa meltha"

The Qur'an also states that jesus created living birds out of clay.
"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave" (Qur'an 3:49)

So, to any Muslims who read this far, may I ask. How was Jesus only a human being if he is also the Messiah, born by a virgin, the Word of God and a creator of living animals who also performed many miracles like healing people from blindness and leprosy?


Abrogations (Repealed Verses that are considered to no longer apply) in the Qur'an

To introduce Abrogations/Repeals, I need to explain the Arabic words of them.
Nasikh means "(the) Abrogator" and Mansukh means "Abrogated, overruled"

The Verse of the Sword itself has abrogated 113 or more verses.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (Qur'an 9:5)

Christians and Jews often refer that God cannot contradict himself or his word will be Null and void. Islam doesn't follow this rule and states that Allah is powerful enough to contradict himself and even repeal and reverse his own word.


How Islam is Similar to the Sicilian Mafia aka the Mob

Allah and his Messenger seem very similar to the Mafia organization of Godfather and Underboss
The Godfather relays messages and commands to the Underboss who then issues those messages and commands to his subordinates and those who follow it are not to question it.

?Do not ask questions about things that, if made known to you, would only pain you? (Qur'an 5:101)

A Piece of the Action
the verse Qur'an 8:41 tells Muslims...
"anything you obtain of war booty - then indeed, for Allah is one fifth of it and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and the orphans, the needy, and the [stranded] traveler, if you have believed in Allah and in that which We sent down to Our Servant on the day of criterion - the day when the two armies met. And Allah , over all things, is competent."

Allah and Muhammad are entitled 20% of the spoils you obtain just like how the Godfather and the Underboss are entitled to how much money you got from something.

Assassinations
If you've seen the Godfather movies, this should come as no big surprise.
The Mafia/Mob are famous for assassinations; sometimes they're used to advance political gains, gain influence by killing powerful rivals, along with growing a reputation and thus preventing new rivals.
Muhammad himself has ordered the assassinations and deaths of many that either disagreed with him or insulted him.

Loyalty of Members and Death to Traitors
When a new member joins the Mafia family, one must take an oath of loyalty, which includes silence and secrecy.
Members of the Mafia are to maintain this strict code of loyalty on the pain of death. Members are expected to always be there for the Mob, even if their wife was about to give birth and are expected to defend the honor of the Godfather, even if it costs them their life.
Anyone who tries to leave the family is considered a traitor and all remaining members of the Family must kill the traitor on sight.

Islam is no different in that the punishment for Apostasy (leaving Islam) is death. Also the fact that Muslims are also expected to defend Allah and Muhammad's honor, even if it costs them their lives (such as in a suicide bombing).
Then there's the extra circumstance where anyone born with a Muslim father is automatically considered a Muslim and must behave like a Muslim is expected to behave, doing otherwise is considered Apostasy in which ANY Muslim is allowed to kill the Apostate, even if they're not the police. This is commanded by Muhammad himself: "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" (Sahih Al-Bukhari 9:84:57)


Dislike of Outsiders
Adding onto the oath of Loyalty, Members of the Mob are expected not to freely befriend or associate with outsiders, those not members of the Mob unless the friendship helps advance the Family in any way.

Islam employs the same idea in which Qur'an 5:51 says...
"O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people."

Islam, like the Mafia families, divide the world into "Us and Them"
Muslims use a doctrine called al-Wala wa-al-Bara which calls on Muslims to be loyal to one another even if they dislike each other and to maintain distance from and bear enmity/hatred for all non-Muslims.

Qur'an 60:1 declares, "O you who believe! Do not take my enemy and your enemy [non-believers] for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth?"

Qur'an 58:22 declares "You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred."

According to Islam, you cannot associate with even your family if they're not Muslim. What a religion of Peace!


Deceiving and Dissimulating
As mentioned before, friendship between a Mafia member and a non-member is only allowed when the friendship can advance the position of the Family in anyway and is permissible but the non-member must be kept at an arm's distance and isn't allowed to know the family business.

Qur'an 3:28 which commands "believers not to take infidels for friends and allies instead of believers? unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions."

According to the Qur'an commentary of Al-Tabari, "taking precautions" means:

If Muslims are under the authority of non-Muslims, fearing for yourselves, then behave loyally to them with your tongue while harboring inner hatred for them... (but remember that) Allah has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels rather than other believers?except when infidels are in authority. Should that be the case, then act friendly towards infidels while preserving their religion.

This is already happening in Europe and some parts of the United States.
A good example of this is when a Muslim is nice to politicians in order to gain political influence to advance Islam.

"An Offer You Can?t Refuse"
One of the most effective ways the Mafia has used to convince people to do their bidding is by giving them an offer that they cannot refuse. The offer is very simple though: "do what we want or we'll kill you."

One example is from the Godfather movies: "either your signature or your brains will be on this contract" (implying they'll shoot him in the head if the guy doesn't sign the contract made in the Mafia's terms)

Islam has often made a habit of this technique, especially against non-Muslims who are not Christian or Jewish. The choice Muslims give non-Christian, non-Jewish non-Muslims is simple: "convert to Islam or we'll kill you."

The "Protection" Racket
The Mafia's most infamously used source of income is the protection racket. The usual application of it comes from local business owners. The business owners are all told by members of the Mafia to pay a fee, the fee could be any amount, so that the owner's business will be protected. If the business owner does not pay up, the owner's property is damaged in order to entice him to pay or risk losing everything he's worked hard for.

Islam employs this technique against only one group: Christians and Jews living under Islamic rule.
Qur'an 9:29 states: ?Fight those among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] who do not believe in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and his Messenger have forbidden, nor embrace the religion of truth, until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued

What real difference is there between the Jizyah tax and a protection racket? There's nearly no difference.
Christians and Jews are allowed only two options to remove the burden of the Jizyah tax...
1. Convert to Islam and pay a smaller religious tax called the Zakat
OR
2. Fight on behalf of a Muslim army. The implication with Option #2 is that any Christian or Jew that aids Muslims in expanding Islam will be rewarded. This is likely the reason the Ottoman military employed many Christians as it's likely the Christians joined in order to alleviate the burden of the Jizyah tax.


Is Christianity and Judaism really just as violent as Islam?

Many Islam Apologists attempt to counter or excuse Islam's violent tendencies by stating that Christianity or Judaism is violent; often mentioning the Crusades or how the ancient Hebrews killed Kana'anaye (The Canaanites) but this argument is faulty for a number of reasons.

1. The Crusades were a response to Muslim invasions and attacks. Many Islam apologists cast the Crusades as an unprovoked act of aggression but fail to mention the various Islamic empires that were chipping away at Europe and invading Europe from many different portions of the Mediterranean.

2. Does Hebrew violence in the ancient era, and Christian violence in the medieval era compare to, explain away, or even legitimize the tenacity of Muslim violence in the modern era?

3. No mention from Islam Apologists that the First genocide of the 20th century (The Armenian+Assyrian+Greek Genocide) was started by Muslims which had a very profound effect.

In response to the Armenian,Assyrian,Greek Genocide, Islam Apologists will use the Holocaust as a counter-argument except this is false analogy. The reason why it's a false Analogy is because Hitler didn't murder Jews for being of the jewish religion, he murdered them because the Nazi party ideology was that Jews were inferior as a race. Islam uses a similar approach as the Nazi Party except Islam's ideology is that all other religions are inferior to Islam.

Thus, any Islam Apologist who counters the Argument using the Holocaust shoots themselves in the foot as they've pretty much put Islam on par with the Nazi party.

4. The Biblical commands for God telling the Hebrews to kill were specific to a time, a place, and a people. God never gave the Hebrews an open-ended command to fight and kill non-Hebrews. This argument stems from the language and meaning from the Bible.

neither Jewish nor Christian scriptures?the Old and New Testaments, respectively?employ such perpetual, open-ended commandments.

Meanwhile in the Qur'an, commandments like Qur'an 9:29 are open-ended.

Qur'an 9:29 - Yusuf Ali English Translation: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

This verse is commanding Muslims to fight and kill Atheists, Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, and pretty much anyone who doesn't follow the rules of Islam, even if they are Christian or Jewish.

The Verse only tells Muslims to stop fighting them if Jews and Christians pay the Jizya tax with submission. Thus, if you're not Jewish or Christian, the only choices you have is to convert to Islam or die and it's likely for Muslims to interpret this as to fight every other Atheist or Pagan until there's absolutely none left in the world.

In conclusion, are Muslims violent? No, but that doesn't mean Islam isn't violent. I'm pretty sure that not all Nazis would use violence but does that mean Nazism isn't violent?
Non-violent Muslims are simply Muslims who are not thoroughly committed to Islam. This is why Islamic Fundamentalist groups often kill them as the Qur'an specifically states that anyone who does not follow the Qur'an is considered a hypocrite!

These "moderate" Muslims are simply practicing the bare minimum that Islam asks of them which is the Five pillars.

Here's the article by Raymond Ibrahim (Egyptian guy / Misraya!)

If Islamic doctrines are inherently violent, why isn?t every single Muslim in the world?that is, approximately 1.5 billion people?violent? 

This question represents one of Islam?s most popular apologias: because not all Muslims are violent, intolerant, or sponsor terrorism?a true statement?Islam itself must be innocent. 

Let?s briefly consider this logic.

First, there are, in fact, many people who identify themselves as Muslims but who do not necessarily adhere to or support Islam?s more supremacist and intolerant doctrines.  If you have lived in a Muslim majority nation, you would know this to be true. 

The all-important question is, what do such Muslims represent?  Are they following a legitimate, ?moderate,? version of Islam?one more authentic than the terrorist variety?  That?s what the media, politicians, and academics would have us believe.

The best way to answer this question is by analogy:

German Nazism is a widely condemned ideology, due to its (?Aryan/white?) supremacist element .  But the fact is, many Germans who were members or supporters of the Nazi party were ?good? people.  They did not believe in persecuting Jews and other ?non-Aryans,? and some even helped such ?undesirables? escape, at no small risk to themselves.

Consider Oskar Schindler.  An ethnic German and formal member of the Nazi party, he went to great lengths to save Jews from slaughter. 

How do we reconcile his good deed with his bad creed? 

Was Schindler practicing a legitimate,  ?moderate,? form of Nazism?  Or is it more reasonable to say that he subscribed to some tenets of National Socialism, but when it came to killing fellow humans in the name of racial supremacy, his humanity rose above his allegiance to Nazism?

Indeed, many Germans joined or supported the National Socialist Party more because it was the ?winning? party, one that offered hope, and less because of its racial theories.

That said, other Germans joined the Nazi party precisely because of its racial supremacist theories and were only too happy to see ?sub-humans? incinerated.

Now consider how this analogy applies to Islam and Muslims: first, unlike most Germans who chose to join or support the Nazi party, the overwhelming majority of Muslims around the world were simply born into Islam; they had no choice.  Many of these Muslims know the bare minimum about Islam?the Five Pillars?and are ignorant of Islam?s supremacist theories.

Add Islam?s apostasy law to the mix?leaving Islam can earn the death penalty?and it becomes clear that there are many nominal ?Muslims? who seek not to rock the boat.

That said, there are also a great many Muslims who know exactly what Islam teaches?including violence, plunder, and enslavement of the kafir, or infidel?and who happily follow it precisely because of its supremacism. 

In both Nazism and Islam, we have a supremacist ideology on the one hand, and people who find themselves associated with this ideology for a number of reasons on the other hand: from those born into it, to those who join it for its temporal boons, to those who are sincere and ardent believers.

The all-important difference is this: when it comes to Nazism, the world is agreed that it is a supremacist ideology.  Those who followed it to the core were ?bad guys??such as Adolf Hitler.  As for the ?good Nazis,? who helped shelter persecuted Jews and performed other altruistic deeds, the world acknowledges that they were not following a ?moderate? form of Nazism, but that their commitment to Nazism was nonchalant at best.

This is the correct paradigm to view Islam and Muslims with: Islam does contain violent and supremacist doctrines.  This is a simple fact.  Those who follow it to the core were and are ?bad guys??for example, Osama bin Laden.  Still, there are ?good Muslims.?  Yet they are good not because they follow a good, or ?moderate,? Islam, but because they are not thoroughly committed to Islam in the first place.

Put differently, was Schindler?s altruism a product of ?moderate Nazism? or was it done in spite of Nazism altogether?  Clearly the latter.  In the same manner, if a Muslim treats a non-Muslim with dignity and equality, is he doing so because he follows a legitimate brand of ?moderate Islam,? or is he doing so in spite of Islam, because his own sense of decency compels him? 

Considering that Islamic law is unequivocally clear that non-Muslims are to be subjugated and live as third-class ?citizens??the Islamic State?s many human rights abuses vis-?-vis non-Muslims are a direct byproduct of these teachings?clearly any Muslim who treats ?infidels? with equality is behaving against Islam.

So why is the West unable to apply the Nazi paradigm to the question of Islam and Muslims?  Why is it unable to acknowledge that Islamic teachings are inherently supremacist, though obviously not all Muslims are literally following these teachings?just like not all members of any religion are literally following the teachings of their faith?

This question becomes more pressing when one realizes that, for over a millennium, the West deemed Islam an inherently violent and intolerant cult.  Peruse the writings of non-Muslims from the dawn of Islam up until recently?from Theophanes the Confessor (d. 818) to  Winston Churchill (d. 1965)?and witness how they all depicted Islam as a violent creed that thrives on conquering, plundering, and subjugating the ?other.?  (Here are Marco Polo?s thoughts).

The problem today is that the politically correct establishment?academia, mainstream media, politicians, and all other talking heads?not ones to be bothered with reality or history, have made it an established ?fact? that Islam is ?one of the world?s great religions.?  Therefore, the religion itself?not just some of its practitioners ?is inviolable to criticism. 

The point here is that identifying the negative elements of an ideology and condemning it accordingly is not so difficult.  We have already done so, with Nazism and other ideologies and cults.  And we know the difference between those who follow such supremacist ideologies (?bad? people), and those who find themselves as casual, uncommitted members (neutral people). 

In saner times when common sense could vent and breathe, this analogy would have been deemed superfluous.  In our times, however, where lots of nonsensical noise is disseminated far and wide by the media?and tragically treated as serious ?analysis??common sense must be methodically spelled out: Yes, an ideology/religion can be accepted as violent or even evil, and no, some of its adherents need not be violent or evil?they can even be good?for the reasons discussed above. 

This is the most objective way to understand the relationship between Islam as a body of teachings and Muslims as individual people. It?s also the best way to respond to the apologia that, if Islam is inherently supremacist and violent, why isn?t every single Muslim so.
Surreal and Suicidal: Modern Western Histories of Islam by Raymond Ibrahim
The full magnitude of the modern West?s ignorance of its own past recently struck me while rereading some early history books concerning the centuries-long jihad on Europe.  The historical narrative being disseminated today simply bears very little resemblance to reality.

Consider some facts for a moment:

A mere decade after the birth of Islam in the 7th century, the jihad burst out of Arabia.  Leaving aside all the thousands of miles of ancient lands and civilizations that were permanently conquered, today casually called the ?Islamic world??including Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and parts of India and China?much of Europe was also, at one time or another, conquered by the sword of Islam.

Among other nations and territories that were attacked and/or came under Muslim domination are (to give them their modern names in no particular order): Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Sicily, Switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Greece, Russia, Poland, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Lithuania, Romania, Albania, Serbia, Armenia, Georgia, Crete, Cyprus, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Macedonia, Belarus, Malta, Sardinia, Moldova, Slovakia, and Montenegro.

In 846 Rome was sacked and the Vatican defiled by Muslim Arab raiders; some 600 years later, in 1453, Christendom?s other great basilica, Holy Wisdom (or Hagia Sophia) was conquered by Muslim Turks, permanently.

The few European regions that escaped direct Islamic occupation due to their northwest remoteness include Great Britain, Scandinavia, and Germany.  That, of course, does not mean that they were not attacked by Islam. Indeed, in the furthest northwest of Europe, in Iceland, Christians used to pray that God save them from the ?terror of the Turk.? These fears were not unfounded since as late as 1627 Muslim corsairs raided the Christian island seizing four hundred captives, selling them in the slave markets of Algiers.

Nor did America escape.  A few years after the formation of the United States, in 1800, American trading ships in the Mediterranean were plundered and their sailors enslaved by Muslim corsairs.  The ambassador of Tripoli explained to Thomas Jefferson that it was a Muslim?s ?right and duty to make war upon them [non-Muslims] wherever they could be found, and to enslave as many as they could take as prisoners.?

In short, for roughly one millennium?punctuated by a Crusader-rebuttal that the modern West is obsessed with demonizing?Islam daily posed an existential threat to Christian Europe and by extension Western civilization.

And therein lies the rub: Today, whether as taught in high school or graduate school, whether as portrayed by Hollywood or the news media, the predominant historic narrative is that Muslims are the historic ?victims? of ?intolerant? Western Christians.  That?s exactly what a TV personality recently told me live on Fox News.

So here we are, paying the price of being an ahistorical society: A few years after the Islamic strikes of 9/11?merely the latest in the centuries-long, continents-wide jihad on the West?Americans elected a man with a Muslim name and heritage for president, who openly empowers the same ideology that their ancestors lived in mortal fear of, even as they sit by and watch to their future detriment.

Surely the United States? European forebears?who at one time or another either fought off or were conquered by Islam?must be turning in their graves.

But all this is history, you say? Why rehash it?  Why not let it be and move on, begin a new chapter of mutual tolerance and respect, even if history must be ?touched up? a bit?

This would be a somewhat plausible position?if not for the fact that, all around the globe, Muslims are still exhibiting the same imperial impulse and intolerant supremacism that their conquering forbears did.  The only difference is that the Muslim world is currently incapable of defeating the West through a conventional war.

Yet this may not even be necessary.  Thanks to the West?s ignorance of history, Muslims are flooding Europe under the guise of ?immigration,? refusing to assimilate, and forming enclaves which in modern parlance are called ?enclaves? or ?ghettoes? but in Islamic terminology are the ribat?frontier posts where the jihad is waged on the infidel, one way or the other.

All this leads to another, perhaps even more important point: If the true history of the West and Islam is being turned upside its head, what other historical ?orthodoxies? being peddled around as truth are also false?

Were the Dark Ages truly benighted because of the ?suffocating? forces of Christianity?  Or were these dark ages?which ?coincidentally? occurred during the same centuries when jihad was constantly harrying Europe?a product of another suffocating religion?  Was the Spanish Inquisition a reflection of Christian barbarism or was it a reflection of Christian desperation vis-?-vis the hundreds of thousands of Muslims who, while claiming to have converted to Christianity, were practicing taqiyya and living as moles trying to subvert the Christian nation back to Islam?

Don?t expect to get true answers to these and other questions from the makers, guardians, and disseminators of the West?s fabricated epistemology.

In the future (whatever one there may be) the histories written about our times will likely stress how our era, ironically called the ?information age,? was not an age when people were so well informed, but rather an age when disinformation was so widespread and unquestioned that generations of people lived in bubbles of alternate realities?till they were finally popped.
 

Cascade

New member
Wtf...Many years ago, my dad once told me that that a man's semen comes from his spine.

He now needs to do some explaining here...!
 

Joe25

New member
Thanks, I got it bookmarked. The nature of muhammad and the way islam spread is all you really need but why not delve deeper into that sickening cult and expose the flaws.
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Joe25 said:
Thanks, I got it bookmarked. The nature of muhammad and the way islam spread is all you really need but why not delve deeper into that sickening cult and expose the flaws.
No problem Joe, I'm not done either. I'm hoping to make this thread a good and single goto spot for arguments against Islam. I will be updating the OP portion instead of posting stuff in separate postings for this thread. In fact, I'm updating the OP as I'm posting this.
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
"Isn't the Quran considered to be directly descended from the Original Quran Allah has? Then why are you allowed to interpret the words from Allah to your liking??"
 

Joe25

New member
mrzurnaci said:
"Isn't the Quran considered to be directly descended from the Original Quran Allah has? Then why are you allowed to interpret the words from Allah to your liking??"
Here's another similar quote:

"Attempts at rescuing the narrative by increasing the complexity and broadening the scope has become quite a transparent tactic among apologists. And here I thought Islam was easy to understand. Apparently it is incomprehensible unless you agree with it. "
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
SURA 19:30 ..... VERILY WE HAVE MADE THIS KORAN EASY AND IN THINE OWN TONGUE
Maryam 19:97

SURA 17:9 ?? VERILY THIS KORAN GUIDETH TO WHAT IS MOST UP RIGHT, ANNOUNCED TO BELIEVERS.

SURA 10:39 ?? MORE OVER, THIS KORAN COULD NOT HAVE BEEN DEVISED BY ANY BUT GOD, AND IS A CLEARING UP OF {JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN} SCRIPTURES, FROM THE LORD OF ALL CREATURES.

SURA 5:70 ??? INFIDELS NOW ARE THOSE THAT SAY GOD IS THE MESSIAH, SON OF MARY. THEY ARE THOSE WHO SAY ?GOD OF THREE?

SURA 5:50 ??? O BELIEVER?S! TAKE NOT THE JEW OR CHRISTIAN AS FRIENDS. THEY ARE BUT ONE ANOTHER?S FRIENDS. IF ANY OF YOU TAKETH THEM FOR HIS FRIENDS, HE IS SURELY ONE OF THEM! GOD WILL NOT GUIDE EVIL DOERS.

SURA 8:10 ??.. WHEN THE LORD {ALLAH} SPAKE UNTO THE ANGELS?S ?I WILL BE WITH YOU??, THEREFORE ESTABLISH THE FAITHFUL. I WILL CAST A DREAD INTO THE HEARTS OF THE INFIDEL! STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS, THEN, STRIKE OFF FROM THEM EVERY FINGER TIP! THIS IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE OPPOSSED GOD AND HIS APOSTLE {MUHAMMAD} TRULY GOD WILL BE SEVERE IN PUNISHMENT!

SURA 8:40 ??? FIGHT AGAINST THEM UNTIL STRIFE BE AT END {ENDLESS} AND THE RELIGION BE ALL OF IT GOD?S???????.{ISLAM}

SURA 8:60 ???. AND THINK NOT THAT THE INFIDEL SHALL ESCAPE US! MAKE READY THEN AGAINST THEM WHAT FORCES YOU CAN, O PROPHET {MUHAMMAD} STIR UP THE FAITHFUL TO FIGHT! NO PROPHET HATH BEEN ENABLED TO TAKE CAPTIVES UNTIL HE HAD MADE GREAT SLAUGHTER IN THE EARTH!

SURA 9:9 ????.. AND WHEN THE SCARED MONTHS ARE PASSED, KILL THOSE WHO JOIN OTHER GODS WITH GOD WHERE EVER YOU SHALL FIND THEM! SEIZE THEM! BESIEGE THEM! LAY IN WAIT FOR THEM WITH EVERY KIND OF AMBUSH! BUT, IF THEY CONVERT, AND OBSERVE PRAYER, AND PAY THE OBLIGATORY ALMS, THEN LET THEM GO THEIR WAY, FOR OUR GOD IS GRACIOUS AND MERCIFUL.

SURA 9:20 ?? MAKE WAR UPON SUCH OF THOSE TO WHOM THE SCRIPTURES HAVE BEEN GIVEN {CHRISTIANS AND JEWS} AS BELIEVE NOT IN OUR GOD AND HIS APOSTLE HAVE FORBIDDEN, WHO PROFESS NOT THE PROFESSION OF THE TRUTH {ISLAM} UNTIL THEY PAY TRIBUTE OUT OF HAND, THAT THEY BE HUMBLED.

SURA 9:70 ?? O PROPHET ! CONTEND AGAINST THE INFIDELS AND THE HYPROCTITES. BE RIGOROUS WITH THEM.

SURA 10:22 ?? VERILY THIS KORAN IS THE TEACHING FOR THOSE WHO SERVE GOD.

SURA 10:22 ?? BUT THOSE WHO BELIEVE NOT, AND SEDUCE OTHERS FROM THE WAY OF GOD, AND FROM THE HOLY MOSQUES, WE WILL CAUSE GRIEVOUS PUNISHMENT.

SURA 22:50 ??.. AND THAT THEY TO WHOM THE KNOWLEDGE IS GIVEN MAY KNOW THAT THE KORAN IS THE TRUTH FROM THY LORD, BELIEVE IN THY HEART. ACQUIESCE IN IT FOR IN IT GOD IS SURLEY THE GUIDE OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE, THE GUIDER OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE, THE PATH OF TRUTH. THE INFIDELS WILL NOT CEASE TO DOUBT CONCERNING IT, UNTIL THE HOUR COMES SUDDENLY UPON THEM.

SURA 42:10 ?? SAY TO THE ARABS IN THE DESERT WHO TOOK NOT THE FIELD OF BATTLE, YE SHALL BE CALLED FORTH AGAINST A PEOPLE OF MIGHTY VALOUR {THAT WOULD BE THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL TODAY} YE SHALL DO BATTLE WITH THEM UNTIL THEY PROFESS ISLAM. IF THEY OBEY A GOODLY RECOMPENSE WILL GOD GIVE TO YOU.

SURA 48:20 ??. MUHAMMAND IS THE APOSTLE OF GOD. HIS COMRADES ARE VEHEMENT AGAINST THE INFIDELS, BUT FULL OF TENDERNESS AMONG THEMSELVES.

SURA 87:10 ??. HE THAT FEARTH GOD RECEIVE WARNINGS. HAPPY HE WHO IS PURIFIED BY ISLAM.

SURA 98 ??.. THE UNBELIEVERS AMONG THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK {CHRISTIANS AND JEWS} THE POLYTHEISTS DO NOT WAVER, UNTIL CLEAR EVIDENCE COMES TO THEM. THEY SHALL GO INTO THE FIRE OF GEHENNA TO ABIDE THEREIN. OF ALL THE CREATURES {JEWS AND CHRISTIANS} THEY ARE THE WORST.

THE PROCEEDING VERSES ARE DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT U.S. CITIZEN?S DEATHS. THOUSANDS OF OUR BRAVE U.S. COMAT TROOPS. MILLIONS OF PURELY INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN, CHILDREN, PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, SINCE MOHAMMAND, THE BUTCHER, AND PEDOPHILE, RECEIVED HIS VISIONS AND DREAMS FROM SATAN, 570-632 A.D. THE KORAN IS A BOOK ABOUT DEATH.

WHY THEN DO YOU ASK, ARE MOST MUSLIM?S ?GOOD PEOPLE?? AND YES, MOST OF THEM ARE! THE ANSWER LIES WITHIN YOU, PERSONALY! WHEN IS THE LAST TIME YOU READ AND PRACTICED WHAT YOUR HOLY BOOK STATED? I THOUGHT SO. SO WITH THEM! AS MOST CHRISTIANS, JEWS, MUSLIMS AGREE, THEIR HOLY BOOKS ARE OPEN TO INTERPRETATION. THE PROBLEM COMES FROM THE KORAN, THAT THERE IS LITTLE WAY TO GET AROUND THE ABOVE MENTIONED.

ALL THE ABOVE INFORMATION CAN BE EASILY VERIFIED SHOULD YOU WISH TO PURCHASE ANY COPY OF THE KORAN AT ANY BOOKSTORE. IF YOU CALL YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN OR A JEW, YOU BETTER RE-READ THIS! ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2001, OVER 3,000 OF YOUR COUNTRYMEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN, NEVER KNEW WHY THEY WERE BUTCHERED??? NOW YOU DO.
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
"We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an so you people may understand / reason" (Qur'an 12:2)

this verse is for when Muslims say the Qur'an is hard to understand and that you need to study it more to have credibility to criticize Islam...
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Against Zakir Naik's argument of where Jesus asks to worship him or that he's God. This list isn't for or against Christianity but against Zakir Naik's argument.


? WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES JESUS SAY: "I AM GOD" or "WORSHIP ME" ???
? "Jesus said: Verily, verily, I say unto you, ? Before ? Abraham (((was))) I AM." (John 8:58 KJV)
? "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for (((I AM God))) and there is none else." (Isaiah 45:22 KJV)
? "And I [John] fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am (((thy fellow servant))), and of (((thy brethren))) that have the testimony of Jesus: Worship ? God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Revelation 19:10 KJV)
? "And Thomas answered and said unto Him: My Lord and my ? God." (John 20:28 KJV)
? "Behold, Jesus met them, saying: ? ((("All hail"))) ? And they came and held him by the feet, and (((worshipped))) Him." (Matthew 28:9 KJV)
? "And they (((worshipped))) Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy." (Luke 24:52 KJV)?
 

Cascade

New member
mrzurnaci said:
Against Zakir Naik's argument of where Jesus asks to worship him or that he's God. This list isn't for or against Christianity but against Zakir Naik's argument.


? WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES JESUS SAY: "I AM GOD" or "WORSHIP ME" ???
? "Jesus said: Verily, verily, I say unto you, ? Before ? Abraham (((was))) I AM." (John 8:58 KJV)
? "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for (((I AM God))) and there is none else." (Isaiah 45:22 KJV)
? "And I [John] fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am (((thy fellow servant))), and of (((thy brethren))) that have the testimony of Jesus: Worship ? God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Revelation 19:10 KJV)
? "And Thomas answered and said unto Him: My Lord and my ? God." (John 20:28 KJV)
? "Behold, Jesus met them, saying: ? ((("All hail"))) ? And they came and held him by the feet, and (((worshipped))) Him." (Matthew 28:9 KJV)
? "And they (((worshipped))) Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy." (Luke 24:52 KJV)?
They may have worshiped him and call him God, but he wasn't so clear about him being called a deity. According John 20: 28-29 (what you quoted) and Revelation 1:17, Jesus allows people to worship him and he never says to not worship him. So, it is allowed, but not forced. Here Jesus clearly wants us to worship his Father alone:

Revelation 19:10 - And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Revelation 22:9 - Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God

I know that you could find verses where he implies that he's a deity. But then again, that's the bible for you. It is not that consistent. And, as non-Christians, we should agree on that.
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Neon said:
They may have worshiped him and call him God, but he wasn't so clear about him being called a deity. According John 20: 28-29 (what you quoted) and Revelation 1:17, Jesus allows people to worship him and he never says to not worship him. So, it is allowed, but not forced. Here Jesus clearly wants us to worship his Father alone:

Revelation 19:10 - And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Revelation 22:9 - Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God

I know that you could find verses where he implies that he's a deity. But then again, that's the bible for you. It is not that consistent. And, as non-Christians, we should agree on that.
Why do you always miss the effing point of this thread?
This thread is to refute arguments from Islam...
If you're not going to stay on topic im just going to lock this thread after I post...
 

Cascade

New member
mrzurnaci said:
Why do you always miss the effing point of this thread?
This thread is to refute arguments from Islam...
If you're not going to stay on topic im just going to lock this thread after I post...
Not sure why you're so riled about Christ's divinity, Mr. Cenk Uygur-for-the-Christians.

How was your list of Christian verses on-topic? I don't care if what you refuted came from a Muslim or an African shaman. You, as a nonbeliever, know that the bible is inconsistent. And I wanted to give you a wake-up call on that. But then you told me to shut up and not change the subject, probably because I made good points and you had nothing constructive in return?

Continue refuting the Quran all you like (as you did), but not what non-Christians say about Jesus and the bible. Because, whether we like it or not, we would inadvertently agree with them - Jesus is not a deity and the bible is false. Maybe if you were a self-proclaimed Christian I would've respected and acknowledged your interpretation on Jesus. But you're not a believer, so don't get ahead of yourself.

P.S. Don't tell me why I made the list on the bible contradictions here. I was clear on that part - This is a predominantly Christian forum. A thread solely dissing Christianity and the bible wouldn't float well here. 
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Neon said:
Not sure why you're so riled about Christ's divinity, Mr. Cenk Uygur-for-the-Christians.

How was your list of Christian verses on-topic? I don't care if what you refuted came from a Muslim or an African shaman. You, as a nonbeliever, know that the bible is inconsistent. And I wanted to give you a wake-up call on that. But then you told me to shut up and not change the subject, probably because I made good points and you had nothing constructive in return?

Continue refuting the Quran all you like (as you did), but not what non-Christians say about Jesus and the bible. Because, whether we like it or not, we would inadvertently agree with them - Jesus is not a deity and the bible is false. Maybe if you were a self-proclaimed Christian I would've respected and acknowledged your interpretation on Jesus. But you're not a believer, so don't get ahead of yourself.

P.S. Don't tell me why I made the list on the bible contradictions here. I was clear on that part - This is a predominantly Christian forum. A thread solely dissing Christianity and the bible wouldn't float well here. 
 

mrzurnaci

Active member
Neon said:
Oh you're right. Let's go straight to the (rather blunt) point then; Zakir actually had a decent argument on Christ's divinity. You didn't.

Happy now?
It was answer to an argumentative question and you just swooped in saying the bible is contradicting itself which adds completely nothing to the overall debate, especially when you argue with a brainwashed Islamist like "Dr." Zakir Naik...

What you're doing is called a Red Herring -> A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.

In an argument about the Divinity of Jesus, as put forth by an Islamist asking where Jesus said he was god or where Jesus said to worship him, I answered his argument with the verses.

his argument put forth is decent but that's where my post refutes it because he asked for proof/source and I put proof/source since Christians are the ones making the claim that Jesus is God.

I didn't present any argument so what the hell are you talking about that I don't have a decent argument?

Secondly, I find it very strange that you're siding with an Islamist when the whole point of this thread is to refute Islam and not Christianity...
 
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