A Changing World "Very Scary For Our Kids"

A

ACANA

New member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

Immigration Sucks, specially from the muslim world. No matter what you will not change these people. The Christian World is in deep trouble. God knows what will happen if they take over.

We see it in Canada when Tamils from Sri Lanka take over our streets and highways now.





 
I don't know what exactly this is about ACANA since I can't view Youtube on this computer, but I am assuming it is about the Tamil protests in Toronto, and we have a discussion about this in the Politics/Current Events forum section.

I just have to add one thing: when the Tamil protestors, unexpectedly stormed the Gardner Express Highway, holding their women and babies in their arms as human sheilds, the police didn't do anything.

Now I dare anyone else to do that, and see how they will put you in handcuffs in a second and charge you. Worse, they will call Child Protection Services and take your child away, never to see him again.

Why this double standard? what is Toronto Police, mayor David Miller and even chief of police Blair afraid of?

Although they have exceeded their civil duties and rights, I am not against them protesting, seeing what is really happening back home (we as Assyrians would probably do the same thing)

But when you start endangering your own lives and not care for public safety, then you are crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed. And unfortunately, a lot of Torontonians are starting to be put off by these protests.

I may merge this with the other topic later.


ASHOOR
 
No, this is a racist video by some racist xenophobe talking about how Muslims are taking over the west, racist-ly.

As difficult as it is to accept this principle, try to digest it:  when one group is oppressed because of their religious/cultural/political beliefs, you're next.  If one has a desire to oppress another for a particular characteristic they have, eventually, the oppression will come back to you.

Fight for freedom for all people, even if you think their religion is "evil".  The answer is not their destruction, the answer is to promote secularization among them.  And I don't want to hear that it's "impossible", because that's ludicrous.
 
waleeta said:
No, this is a racist video by some racist xenophobe talking about how Muslims are taking over the west, racist-ly.

As difficult as it is to accept this principle, try to digest it:  when one group is oppressed because of their religious/cultural/political beliefs, you're next.  If one has a desire to oppress another for a particular characteristic they have, eventually, the oppression will come back to you.

Fight for freedom for all people, even if you think their religion is "evil".  The answer is not their destruction, the answer is to promote secularization among them.  And I don't want to hear that it's "impossible", because that's ludicrous.
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I really like that part Waleeta, but I believe only a country like the USA can achieve that, and Canada to a lesser extent.  I don't have much hope in Europe.

ASHOOR
 
Waleeta, no this is not a racist video. Truth hurts sometimes. The video is talking about the annexations of the western world by immigrant muslims. Here in Canada we have muslims. Not many but we have them. The ones we have had the gull to ask the govenment of Ontario and maybe even Canada to change the laws of the country and follow Sharia law. Now imagine 50 years from now and the muslim population is probalby 5-10 times what it is now. What will they ask for to change then.


 
Saying "the truth hurts" doesn't make it a non-racist video.  It's racist. Let them ask for Sharia law.  Say no. Kharta?

If Muslims - or Christians for that matter - are both still asking for "sharia law" after generations of living in non-Islamic countries, then you've failed at assimilation and secular education.  Frankly, all religious types tend to want their religion imposed legislatively, Christians do it here in the U.S.  Jews and Muslims have their own religious courts in the UK.  Is that the fault of the religious groups, or the governments which allowed it?

 
That is why I love my religion. It is because we are compassionate, loving and we beilieve in forgivness. In the musilm religion nothing resembles these three things. We have a discussion between three people and one says it is ok for muslim immigrants to ask for Sharia or to change any other law tht suits them.

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zdN234Bp9w





 
ACANA said:
That is why I love my religion. It is because we are compassionate, loving and we beilieve in forgivness. In the musilm religion nothing resembles these three things. We have a discussion between three people and one says it is ok for muslim immigrants to ask for Sharia or to change any other law tht suits them.

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zdN234Bp9w
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Did you even comprehend what Waleeta wrote?  Obviously not.  She says its the role of secular governments to prevent the implementation of any religious-based body.  So yes, Christians have the right to ask for prayers in schools, Jews the right to their own courts, and muslims for Sharia.  And it is the role of western governments to rule against all of them.  Once you allow one, you must allow them all.

As to this paranoia of THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING!  THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING!  I say this fear-mongering is misplaced.  Let them come to these western countries and assimilate and evolve like everyone else has.  It may not happen with the first generation, but it will with future ones.  Perhaps they will learn a thing or two about the value of women, freedom of expression, and free will.  It is the muslims who should fear their migration to the west, not the other way around.
 
The video is fearmongering.  It is made by a reactionary Christian (group).  There are immigrants travelling to all kind of countries around the world, settling, and living perfectly good lives.  It is the voice of the religious fundamentalists that are heard louder than the moderates who favour secularisation - that is precisely the problem.  The solution lies with not shouting louder than them with your brand of dogma, but to promote secularism, like Waweeta said.  There is no 'Christian world' and 'Muslim world' - the concept is fallacious and illusory.  There is only one world and we all must share it and respect each other in respect to our moral sensibilities and our individual utility.

In theory, a majority Muslim group could vote to pass otherwise abhorent legislation in an otherwise secular country or a country with a different religious culture.  However, this can be nulled by certain stipulations in the said country's charter or constitution.  For example, here in the U.K. the head of the Church is the Queen (with the Archbishop of Canterbury really in charge anyway).  This position is steeped in hundreds of years of history and will not be undone by foreign religious fundamentalists in the posted video (especially within that ridiculous timespan).  The problem with societies such as ours which have a religious disposition is that, in the spirit of fairness and equality, Muslim groups are afforded equivalent rights to practice their faith in the public sector, which, despite the groans from Christians and secularists alike, is fair.  This is because of a prevailing liberalism regarding cultural diversity in a Western society, resulting not in secular society, but multi-religional society.  For me, this structure is unacceptable in the long term.

The major gripe I have with religious people pushing to enmesh their religious values upon their country of residence's (or origin's) legislature is the pathetic silence that comes from the moderates within the particular religious group.  Dealing with crazies should not be left to the government or the secular public, but those of the same religion as the crazies.  It is the perpetual and consistent failure of all religious institutions that are responsible for the fundamental wing of every religion, however, it must be said the fundamentalists are only 'fundamentalists' by virtue of us calling them as such.  For all the arguments I have with crazies on here, e.g. Claridy, whatever they say and advocate, as grotesque and god-awful as it might be, is actually in their holy book (in her case, the Bible, but for Ahmed or Walid, it will be the Qu'ran).  Views like that cannot enter the mainstream.  You dont fight fire with fire either.  

As for your statement 'immigration sucks' - if it wasn't for immigration, more than half of us would not exist, would have been slaughtered and would have nowhere near the standard of life we have now.  Think carefully before making generalisations.
 
ACANA said:
Immigration Sucks, specially from the muslim world. No matter what you will not change these people. The Christian World is in deep trouble. God knows what will happen if they take over.

We see it in Canada when Tamils from Sri Lanka take over our streets and highways now.
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Said the white people when you moved in next door.

Also Tamils are not Muslim, so could you please find a hateful video about Hindus?
 
jacob said:
Said the white people when you moved in next door.

Also Tamils are not Muslim, so could you please find a hateful video about Hindus?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvzVe5cbkG8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0FLW_OSKdA

No religious belief is exempt from violence.  Even the ones which preach "love and peace" (which, by the way, all of them do.)
 
baklawa said:
And it is the role of western governments to rule against all of them.  Once you allow one, you must allow them all.
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Why MUST you "allow them all"? England was is steeped in Christian history, but it is slowly being erased by foreign religions and 'secularism'. Why should Muslims or any other religion have their religious rules implemented in Western society? Would we be able to go to Afghanistan or Israel and demand that the Bible to be taught in schools, or that there be prayer time set aside for Christian students? It's got nothing to do with progressionism or any other modernist mentality. It's about holding on to the foundations of a country (or countries if you're talking about US as well) that gave us morals and family values, a society with integrity, and decent and upstanding citizens.
 
Waleeta, what you are saying does make sense, but do you really believe that is what will happen?

Ask yourself this, Will the western world (laws, culture, secularism etc.) change its Muslim immigrants ... or will the Muslim immigrants change all things which are rooted in the Western world?

Also ask yourself this, How is it possible for Netherlands (one of the most liberal and free states in the world) take away some rights of Muslims? isnt that taking away from everything they believe in?

The "proposed" answer to that is that these Muslim immigrants are hindering the rights of many Dutch people eg. Gays, Prostitutes and other peoples who are not fit within Islam.

Also take the cases of the brutal killing of Theo van Gogh, the death threats within Netherlands itself against Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the fact that the members of the London Bus bombings were British born

Part of something that the West holds dear is Freedom of Speech ... that includes freedom to criticize a religion
 
Jones said:
Why MUST you "allow them all"? England was is steeped in Christian history, but it is slowly being erased by foreign religions and 'secularism'. Why should Muslims or any other religion have their religious rules implemented in Western society? Would we be able to go to Afghanistan or Israel and demand that the Bible to be taught in schools, or that there be prayer time set aside for Christian students? It's got nothing to do with progressionism or any other modernist mentality. It's about holding on to the foundations of a country (or countries if you're talking about US as well) that gave us morals and family values, a society with integrity, and decent and upstanding citizens.
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What do you mean why must you allow them all?  Laws are meant for everyone, not just one group of people.  Denying one group certain rights that others have is discrimination.  Just because backward societies like Saudi Arabia or other reactionary nations practice bigotry does not give us license to do the same; that's what separates us and gives us the positive qualities you described. 

As for these nations being "steeped in Christian history" I can tell you that was not the case in the US.  I'm not talking about the fundamentalist puritans, but those actually responsible for creating the foundation of what we cherish today.  Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams -- many of these men had the vision and forsight to see the dangers of mixing politics and religion and quite rightly separated the two.

Muslims are the newest immigrant group to arrive, and like all others before them are the scapegoats for all ills and the target of much paranoid rhetoric.  Like every other group before and since, they too shall assimilate eventually.  Like I said, it is they who should be worried.
 
Jones said:
Why MUST you "allow them all"? England was is steeped in Christian history, but it is slowly being erased by foreign religions and 'secularism'. Why should Muslims or any other religion have their religious rules implemented in Western society? Would we be able to go to Afghanistan or Israel and demand that the Bible to be taught in schools, or that there be prayer time set aside for Christian students? It's got nothing to do with progressionism or any other modernist mentality. It's about holding on to the foundations of a country (or countries if you're talking about US as well) that gave us morals and family values, a society with integrity, and decent and upstanding citizens.
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No religion should be allowed to govern or seep into legislation, period. That doesn't infringe in any way on your right to be a Christian, it only keeps you from enforcing Christian "morality" onto others.

When we say "must", we mean you cannot pick and choose what religion you allow to have influence, unless you are prepared to no longer call your country a Democracy.  If you accept that you will no longer be a democracy, then do as you please, and live in your autocracy/theocracy/dictatorship/or whatever it morphs into. 

The "Christian" foundation of most countries brought them to their knees with corruption, racism, chauvenism, slavery, and other social ills until the people revolted.  Only a foundation of secular democracies has been the most stable.

Malik Danno said:
Waleeta, what you are saying does make sense, but do you really believe that is what will happen?

Ask yourself this, Will the western world (laws, culture, secularism etc.) change its Muslim immigrants ... or will the Muslim immigrants change all things which are rooted in the Western world?

Also ask yourself this, How is it possible for Netherlands (one of the most liberal and free states in the world) take away some rights of Muslims? isnt that taking away from everything they believe in?

The "proposed" answer to that is that these Muslim immigrants are hindering the rights of many Dutch people eg. Gays, Prostitutes and other peoples who are not fit within Islam.

Also take the cases of the brutal killing of Theo van Gogh, the death threats within Netherlands itself against Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the fact that the members of the London Bus bombings were British born

Part of something that the West holds dear is Freedom of Speech ... that includes freedom to criticize a religion
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Umm...no.  A Muslim is free as a Christian is free - their freedom ends when they infringe upon the rights of another.  So, a Muslim can pray five times a day, but they cannot oppress women or homosexuals.  A Christian is free to pray, celebrate Christmas, etc., but he cannot stone a homosexual to death.  A Jew is free to abstain from pork and stay indoors on the Sabbath, but he is not allowed to mandate banning pork or closing the country down on Saturdays.

What you are asking is "well, Muslims believe they have the right to kill a Christian, so how can we say no to that and not be infringing on their religious beliefs?" (not all Muslims believe this, even though it is written in the Koran).

I'll answer that the same way I answer this question:  "A Christian believes homosexuality is a sin and they should be 'cured', outcast, killed, and now allowed the same rights as heterosexuals" (not all Christians believe this, even though it is written in the Bible).

You both get this answer:  You are free to believe as you will, it is illegal for you to act on it.  A State cannot control your beliefs, but it will control and punish your actions if necessary.

And to answer your initial question, yes. Eventually, they will assimilate.
 
waleeta said:
Umm...no.  A Muslim is free as a Christian is free - their freedom ends when they infringe upon the rights of another.  So, a Muslim can pray five times a day, but they cannot oppress women or homosexuals.  A Christian is free to pray, celebrate Christmas, etc., but he cannot stone a homosexual to death.  A Jew is free to abstain from pork and stay indoors on the Sabbath, but he is not allowed to mandate banning pork or closing the country down on Saturdays.

What you are asking is "well, Muslims believe they have the right to kill a Christian, so how can we say no to that and not be infringing on their religious beliefs?" (not all Muslims believe this, even though it is written in the Koran).

I'll answer that the same way I answer this question:  "A Christian believes homosexuality is a sin and they should be 'cured', outcast, killed, and now allowed the same rights as heterosexuals" (not all Christians believe this, even though it is written in the Bible).

You both get this answer:  You are free to believe as you will, it is illegal for you to act on it.  A State cannot control your beliefs, but it will control and punish your actions if necessary.

And to answer your initial question, yes. Eventually, they will assimilate.
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I guess then this is where we differ. You believe that European secular, equal society will dominate and in the end they will assimilate in European society. I believe that in the end they will (through democracy) change everything that Europe believes in (unless Europe wakes up). 40-45% of English Muslims want to see some form of Sharia law instituted in England. The London Bus bombers were English born, Mohammed Bouyeri was born in Amsterdam. If you were to walk through Londonistan, and other neughbourhoods throughout Europe, you will forget you are in Europe ... it will seem like you are in Baghdad.
This video is saying that the population of Mulsim is increasing significantly within Europe, and a few years from now that 40-45% will be large enough that it will have enough backing to change laws! Thats my point.
But who cares, this is the liberal leftist appeasing soft fault of European politicians who let this get so out of hand. They themselves believed they could assimilate Muslims ... and 30 years have gone by and they are just started to wake up. Australia is on the right track. Europeans are starting to wake up too ... they are electing further right wing leaders across the continent (not saying thats a good thing, but change is witnessed) whose policy is against Muslim extremism and assimilation.
 
You are talking about first generation Muslim immigrants.  No immigrant group fails to assimilate.  Muslims have only 1 and at most 2 generations outside the middle east.

You want to end Jihadis?  You should be doing the opposite:  Take them OUT of the Middle East, where generation after generation, they will breed terrorists, and bring them to YOUR culture, where within a generation or two, they will assimilate.

It is the "liberal leftists" who want open immigration who will "save us" from militant religious groups, Christian, Muslim or otherwise.  It would be the xenophobic conservatives who will keep them in a perpetual state of poverty, ignorance, and oppression:  or in other words, breeding grounds for extremists. 

You should WANT the Muslims from those countries flooding the west, actually.  Those who seek to "overtake us with the wombs of their women" are naive if they think within 2 generations, they will even remember what "jihad" means.
 
By the way...Muslims already have Sharia law in the UK.  They had to give it to them:  they allowed Jews to have their religious courts years ago.

The UK actually isn't secular, which is the main problem.
 
I think we're missing some very important parts of this debate. First and foremost is the miscegenation that will inevitably occur when these people come to our countries and prey on our women.  At a highly disproportionate rate the Muslim male will take non-Muslim wives and convert them, thus robbing the Christian world of proper breeding stock.  This will have a continued effect in the decline of the Christian worlds population.  They also do not believe in forms of contraception or birth control.  The opposite of this does not occur for Muslim women, they do not tend to marry outside of their own religion.  The damaging effects of all this continues as their population increases and becomes more insular.

Another important factor is the types of commerce these people engage in.  We see these people form clusters in cities they move to and they immediately run out the local businesses to put in their own fuel dispensing outlets, grocery stores/carry outs, cell phone and accessory stores, and any other types of businesses that services the needs of the community.  This keeps their money within their own community and thus deprives the greater white world of the valuable commerce these greedy people keep to themselves.

The "Muslim Question" is one that will need to be decided quickly and with great efficiency.  I see no alternatives but to track each and every one with detailed census data and only through public, visible, external markings will we be able to fully know who each and every enemy of our great father state is.
 
Example:  I work with two muslim men.  Both married American women.  Neither woman converted.  One man has two children, the other four.  All six kids are as American as baseball and apple pie.  None of them speak Arabic.  None of them practice Islam.  In fact, the one with two kids sent them to a private catholic school.  Yes, there are those who have hung on to their traditions -- just like many first and second generation Assyrians have.  But the continuing generations will only know a few linguistic terms and maybe what falafel is.
 
America was able to dissolve and assimilate some 20 million hardcore Germans. Will they not be able to do it with Muslims (different from Arabs)? I don't know, but we all know there are some 2 and 3rd generation muslims in North America and Europe, and they haven't changed, and if anything, they are more radical now.

To say that America will assimilate them is probably just hopeful and wishful thinking.

911 was a good wakeup call of course. For the Danes for example (as witnessed by my friend) the Mohammad cratoon drawings was their wake-up call. They no longer treat Muslims and Christians as one and the same. And why should they, especially if some Muslims don't have good intentions to begin with...

I think things will change in 10 years: in that North America and European countries will make it harder for people Muslim countries to migrate there. Then you are only left with those who are already in there.

Again, I would worry about Europe and and Canada more so than the US...


ASHOOR
 
I want you to name me just ONE second or third generation Muslim who is still a radical Islamist.  Just one.

If 9/11 was a wake-up call for anything, it was a wake up call to understand we cannot leave these countries in impoverished oppression forever. 

If anything, Western countries like ours need to enforce secularism and build up a strong public education system better.
 
And there is another thing going in the West's favor: for some reason, I think it is easier to dissolve these people today than it was, say 25 years ago.

Sure they now have more contact with their people and culture through satelite and other mediums, but at the same time, the internet is making a fundemental difference.  With the majority of communication online being done in English, it is just not cool anymore to use your native language to communicate with others, otherwise you won't have a lot of friends and people to communicate with. It is a survival game.

Not just that, but even for Arabs and Muslims who are still in their countries, this is a big threat: with no need to even leave their rooms, let alone their countries, the internet is beaming from all across the globe into their room, giving them exposure to the western culture. You just can't avoid that.

ASHOOR
 
Waleeta, you know I wouldn't know names, but I am pretty sure they exist. But even if they don't, what about the following:

-European or even American citizens who get married to radical Muslims and become just as radical if not worse. Like that Belgian woman who got married to a radical Morrocan, changed her to become a pure and radical Muslim, and both ended up as suicide bombers in Iraq (good thing some brave American soldiers blew her up before she could get to her target lol)

-Or American Azam (I think that is his name?) He was an American from California, who got exposed to local Jihadi groups, and now is a very active Al-Qaeda member.

So it is not just about the influence of themselvs on themselvs: but on others from outside of their group...


ASHOOR
 
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